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Old November 19, 2013, 06:06 PM   #26
Bennyboy
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I'm not a member on that forum and cannot see the post. But for what it's worth, I'm in Georgia. And don't think I'm some wannabe cowboy lookin to shot someone. I'd do everything I could to avoid it and thus, once I do, I'm going to fire. I'm not pointing it and giving the bad guy a choice. He made his choice when he forced me to draw.
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Old November 19, 2013, 06:10 PM   #27
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Sorry about that. I didn't realize that you had to be a member to see that thread. Try this one.

I'm not accusing you of being either a wannabe, a cowboy, or a wannabe cowboy. However, there are more than a few folks that think if they draw, they have to shoot. Deciding that "if I draw, I'm going to shoot" can land one in hot water fairly quickly.
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Old November 19, 2013, 06:20 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
If I have reason to pull my gun, I'm going to use it. If I'm not justified in using it, I should have never pulled it.
That is an old saying that people referred to originally make a point that guns should only be drawn when needed. We understood growing up that it meant to be prepared to use it counts for the reasoning. I hate to see it grow to this belief.
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Old November 19, 2013, 06:45 PM   #29
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I wasn't offended Spats, no need to apologize. And Wreck-n-Crew, I've heard the same growing up, and what I said is not my derivative of that. What I said is how I feel personally, it's not that I will feel compelled to fire upon pulling my gun. Instead, think of it as I'm simply saying I'll have been forced, in which case I'll have also been forced to fire. I can assure you, it would take more to make me draw than most. Not scared of totin' a whoopin'.
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Old November 19, 2013, 07:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
...What I said is how I feel personally, it's not that I will feel compelled to fire upon pulling my gun. Instead, think of it as I'm simply saying I'll have been forced, in which case I'll have also been forced to fire...
What you feel is beside the point. What is important is understanding clearly the laws related to the use of force in self defense. Things can change quickly.

It might well be that in a particular situation you would be justified drawing your gun; it could even be wise to draw your gun. But if before you fire things change, you might not be legally justified in shooting.

It appears that some study of the laws relating to the use of force in self defense would be in order. Have a look here and here.
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Old November 19, 2013, 08:15 PM   #31
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Thanks guys. I guess this is just one subject we'll have to disagree on. I can't make my points with words but I'm not talking about a legal situation here, I'm talking about a life and death (what it would take for me to pull my gun). Even if for some reason it was NOT justifiable, I would do it if it meant living. Anyway, we could go into it all night, make scenarios, discuss it, argue, etc. Still doesn't change what I know to be my threshold or tolerance. If I pull, I shoot. Period.
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Old November 19, 2013, 08:19 PM   #32
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What I said is how I feel personally, it's not that I will feel compelled to fire upon pulling my gun. Instead, think of it as I'm simply saying I'll have been forced, in which case I'll have also been forced to fire. I can assure you, it would take more to make me draw than most. Not scared of totin' a whoopin'.
I thought that as a possibility and often times communication is not as easy on a forum as in person when talking. Also you can see how easy it is for a prosecutor or detective to misunderstand as well.
Can't tell you how many times I have to retract a statement or clarify it with better wording. Happens to most of us sometime or another.
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Old November 19, 2013, 08:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
...I'm talking about a life and death (what it would take for me to pull my gun). Even if for some reason it was NOT justifiable, I would do it if it meant living...
If it truly meant living it would be justifiable. But if your attacker has broken off his attack, or fled or otherwise ceased to be a threat, shooting would not be necessary to save your life; and if you shoot you will be committing a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
...If I pull, I shoot. Period.
And maybe go to prison for the rest of your life.
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Old November 19, 2013, 10:11 PM   #34
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Call the cops first.....

....then consider yourself lucky that you don't have to endure the expenses of legal defense.....

....or finding more carry ammo....
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Old November 20, 2013, 09:12 AM   #35
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It's cool Wreck-n-Crew. Even harder to make a point on an IPhone. Takes too long, haha.

Frank, thanks for the heads up. I know I'll be justified, so it's all good. And let me add, that in the 1-2 seconds it takes for me to know I need to draw and to put my sights on target, if the bad guy turned to run, dropped his weapon, etc, I would not fire. I'm not going to execute someone. However, if at the time my sights are lined up, the threat still exists, I'm firing. There won't be negotiations.

I promise this is the last time I try to get my point across. Take it for what it's worth, probably nothing. .
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Old November 20, 2013, 09:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
. . . .in the 1-2 seconds it takes for me to know I need to draw and to put my sights on target, if the bad guy turned to run, dropped his weapon, etc, I would not fire. I'm not going to execute someone. However, if at the time my sights are lined up, the threat still exists, I'm firing. There won't be negotiations.
Well, this ^^^ is a far cry from what you posted earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
If I have reason to pull my gun, I'm going to use it. If I'm not justified in using it, I should have never pulled it.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
If I pull, I shoot. Period.
I will also add:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
Frank, thanks for the heads up. I know I'll be justified, so it's all good.
We sincerely hope that if you do ever have to draw and shoot, you'll be justified. Bear in mind, though, that you won't get to decide if it was justified. That's done later by a variety of other folks, like prosecutors and juries.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:01 AM   #37
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I don't see where what I said is a "far cry" from what I said initially. I had to expand on it because it was being picked apart and any negative one could draw from it was being exploited. Any reasonable, logical person could have read that and taken it for what I meant, not nit picked it to death.

Finally, concerning the legal consequences: if that was my main concern, I wouldn't carry a gun at all. I'd let myself be mugged or harmed or whatever and hope the legal system did its job against the perp. But since I don't place my faith (or fear) in that system, I carry to defend myself. Judged by 12 or carried by 6. I'll take the first regardless.

Anyway, grain of salt.

Last edited by Bennyboy; November 20, 2013 at 10:07 AM.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:06 AM   #38
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Nothing was being exploited, Bennyboy. I quoted exactly what you posted. You were simply taken at your words. Now you claim that "reasonable, logical" people would have understood it for what you meant, but not what you said. You said what you said. If you needed to expand to make it more precise, that's fair enough. What you posted is not our fault, though.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:08 AM   #39
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Spats:

Fair enough. I'll expand thoroughly the first time, next time. Thanks, no hard feelings.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:17 AM   #40
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Spats:

In fact, I'd like to apologize. I shouldn't have said anything about being reasonable and logical. I'm sure you are both.

I should have said that what I posted was being looked at in a cynical way. Instead of thinking, "he said if he pulls and the guy is begging for his life he is still going to murder him in the streets" it could have been thought of as "he's saying that if he is scared enough to pull his gun, he's going to end the situation as quickly as possible because it must've been very serious".

I just don't view my gun as a tool of persuasion. That's all, not saying my way is better than anyone else's, just different I guess.

Anyway, sorry again. I wasn't trying to insult anyone.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:23 AM   #41
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This should throw some light on the subject.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:40 AM   #42
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I'll have to read that thoroughly when I have time. But something immediately jumps out. It's not that I think "I have to shoot because I pulled my gun". I think like this, "I pulled my gun because I have to shoot".

Think about it.
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Old November 20, 2013, 10:59 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
Spats:

In fact, I'd like to apologize. I shouldn't have said anything about being reasonable and logical. I'm sure you are both.

I should have said that what I posted was being looked at in a cynical way. Instead of thinking, "he said if he pulls and the guy is begging for his life he is still going to murder him in the streets" it could have been thought of as "he's saying that if he is scared enough to pull his gun, he's going to end the situation as quickly as possible because it must've been very serious".
No harm done, Bennyboy.

As for "looking at what you posted in a cynical way," consider it this way: Frank and I looked at what you posted as lawyers do. Frank is a retired attorney, and I'm an actively practicing one. I don't prosecute violent crimes, but I've been in courts enough to know that, if I did, I could make some hay with lines like the ones you posted earlier, pre-clarification. Imagine being the defendant after an SD shooting (& defendant) and taking the stand:
Quote:
PA: Didn't you brag on the internet that "if you draw, you shoot?"
Def: Well, I said it, but I wasn't "bragging."
PA: Ok, but you said it, right?
Def: Right.
PA: So you knew three weeks before you killed that 14 yo choirboy that if you drew, you were going to shoot him.
Def: Well, no . . .
PA: But that's what you said. "If you draw, you shoot." You just told us that.
Def: Well, that's not really what I meant.
PA: So was it a lie when you posted it, or is it just a lie now?
Can you see how quickly credibility goes down the pipes? Word choice and articulation are very important.
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Old November 20, 2013, 11:02 AM   #44
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If you wait until you have to shoot before you pull your gun you are in serious danger of being behind the proverbial curve.

There are a great many instances where pulling a gun might be justified while pulling the trigger at that moment would not.

The standards for presenting a weapon vary by locality but they are not (generally) the same standards as using that weapon.

Some states even have verbiage that specifically allows for the presentation of a firearm with the express purpose of preventing the situation from escalating to the point that deadly force is actually warranted.

Point being, drawing your firearms and discharging your firearm are only tangentially connected in the sense that it must be drawn before it can be used. Neither justifies the other and drawing does not necessitate use.
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Old November 20, 2013, 11:53 AM   #45
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Posted by Brian Phlueger: If you wait until you have to shoot before you pull your gun you are in serious danger of being behind the proverbial curve.
You certainly do not want to wait too long.

The issue is one of determining when and whether the threat is in fact imminent. For those who are not aware of the history, Dennis Tueller became famous through his conduct of experiments showing that, if one is faced by an assailant armed with a contact weapon, waiting to draw until the attacker was in close enough proximity to use the weapon would not work out well for the defender. The need for that demonstration arose from disputes over when a defender (a police officer, in that case) could lawfully present his weapon.

Quote:
There are a great many instances where pulling a gun might be justified while pulling the trigger at that moment would not.
That's true in some jurisdictions, but not in others. In the latter, the distinction between the justification for drawing (or in some of them, pointing the gun) and for shooting is one of what is going on at the moment.

I have had to point a gun at violent criminal actors on three different occasions (all indoors) over the years, and in each the mere presentation of the weapon, plus some clear industrial strength coaching, saved the day. I did not present the weapon until I had been faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, and presenting the weapon took care of the threat.

Quote:
Some states even have verbiage that specifically allows for the presentation of a firearm with the express purpose of preventing the situation from escalating to the point that deadly force is actually warranted.
Yes, and in some of those that resulted from appellate rulings, and in some, from legislative action.

Most of us would likely favor that provision, but not everyone does. In one state, a bill providing for the "defensive display of a firearm" was vetoed by the governor, who made dire predictions about the potential effects of such a law. The requirement that a defender be faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm before even mentioning a firearm thus remained in effect. Fortunately her successor signed the bill the second time around.

In another state, the legislature reduced the threshold for lawful presentation from one in which deadly force had been necessary to one in which non-deadly physical force would be justified after an unusual set of circumstances. The use of force laws had been re-written, apparently hurriedly, and a high court ruling in an appellate case determined that under the new law, drawing a firearm in self defense was justified only if the defender actually shot the assailant (!). That obviously had not been intended, and the legislature redrafted the law, with many improvements.

In one state, and only one that I know of, pointing a gun at someone is legally the same as using deadly force.
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Old November 20, 2013, 11:55 AM   #46
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If you wait until you have to shoot before you pull your gun you are in serious danger of being behind the proverbial curve.
Brian, that is true, but while I understand your position, I am not sure I agree with the premiss unless you are on your own property and facing an unknown threat. Many states consider the pulling of a weapon as brandishing unless it is absolutely necessary. This is a very gray area, and unless the attacker has a weapon in his or her hand, I would tend to leave mine holstered until needed.

I know it might not be the smart thing to do, but I would rather be behind the curve than behind bars.

Jim
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Old November 20, 2013, 12:46 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennyboy
...I should have said that what I posted was being looked at in a cynical way...
One needs to be careful about what and how one puts things. You have no control over how people look at what you say. You only have control over what you say. To paraphrase an old carpentry adage: think twice; speak once.

And that probably goes double on the Internet where you are speaking to everyone in the world with Internet access. See this article headlined "Bay Area prosecutors increasingly using social media posts in criminal cases" from the 16 August 2013 edition of the Contra Costa Times:
Quote:
PLEASANTON -- A teenage driver originally accused of vehicular manslaughter now faces a murder charge in the death of a bicyclist, partly because prosecutors say he bragged on Twitter about driving dangerously.

His case is part of a growing trend of social media posts being used as evidence against suspects, authorities said Friday.

....

As suspects feel compelled to post their misdeeds online for audiences to see, investigators have taken advantage, using the online quasi-confessions to bolster their cases, Bay Area prosecutors said.

In San Francisco, a cyclist in March fatally struck a 71-year-old pedestrian in a crosswalk after speeding through three red lights in the Castro District. Chris Bucchere, who eventually pleaded guilty to felony vehicular manslaughter, received a stiffer charge after he posted his explanation of the crash on a cycling group's website....
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Old November 20, 2013, 01:17 PM   #48
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Quote:
Posted by Jim243: Many states consider the pulling of a weapon as brandishing unless it is absolutely necessary.
Or as aggravated assault.

What constitutes necessity does vary.... In some states that means that deadly force is immediately necessary, and in others, non-deadly physical force is the threshold.

The subject of when one may lawfully draw and of what pitfalls a citizen may encounter whee he or she is not the first to notify he police are touché upon in this book, which I heartily recommend.
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Old November 20, 2013, 06:36 PM   #49
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If you wait until you have to shoot before you pull your gun you are in serious danger of being behind the proverbial curve.

There are a great many instances where pulling a gun might be justified while pulling the trigger at that moment would not.
Well said. From just 10 feet someone can make contact with you before you can clear your holster. Not at all hard to be surprised by someone while debating pulling your weapon.

At the same time their behavior may have warranted a draw by entering your space in a way that is threatening or alarming, but not enough to fire.

Knowing the difference can save your life or your freedom.
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Old November 20, 2013, 06:43 PM   #50
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This thread is continuing to wander off point. The question was whether one should call the police and make a report if he had been force to draw his gun to defend himself, but the assailant broke off before the defender needed to fire his gun.

The answer is "yes."

But it looks like no one has anything further to say on the subject.

Closed.
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