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Old April 25, 2019, 12:05 PM   #26
Doyle
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I do not know of anyone who carries a Ruger .22 auto, Browning Buckmark, etc., around in the woods with them that is not cocked and locked.
This is exactly the reason I got rid of my Ruger MKII. I just didn't feel comfortable knowing that the only thing protecting my leg from getting shot if a brush grabbed the trigger was that single safety.
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Old April 25, 2019, 12:13 PM   #27
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This is exactly the reason I got rid of my Ruger MKII....
You got rid of the gun because you couldn't figure out a "comfortable" (safe) way to carry it??
I am...amazed....
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Old April 25, 2019, 01:15 PM   #28
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You got rid of the gun because you couldn't figure out a "comfortable" (safe) way to carry it??.
Yes. My need was for a "walking around the woods" .22LR plinker. I sold the Ruger and bought a S&W 617 10-shot.
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Old April 25, 2019, 06:06 PM   #29
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This is exactly the reason I got rid of my Ruger MKII. I just didn't feel comfortable knowing that the only thing protecting my leg from getting shot if a brush grabbed the trigger was that single safety.
...but that is the thing. Whether a 1911 or 22, the hammer/sear relationship, locked in by the safety is what keeps your leg safe. You test its function with every shot.

Do you carry a bolt action rifle or shotgun cocked and locked?....most of them only have only a trigger safety.

Do you carry a Glock? Cocked and unlocked?

Please don’t take this as an attack on your post. Your opinion is widely held, especially in law enforcement. This is partially why we went through the DAO auto phase!
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Old April 25, 2019, 10:02 PM   #30
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Aguila, Sorry if I confused you but I know of no organization that provides an officer with 100,000 rounds per year to plink with.
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Old April 26, 2019, 07:29 AM   #31
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Do you carry a bolt action rifle or shotgun cocked and locked?....most of them only have only a trigger safety.
I don't consider those to be as dangerous. I can always control the muzzle direction of a long gun. So, in the event of a safety failure the threat is minimized. In a holstered gun with a light-pull trigger (yes, that MKII had a very light trigger pull) only held by a single safety, I can't control the muzzle direction.
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Old April 26, 2019, 10:42 AM   #32
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I don't consider those to be as dangerous. I can always control the muzzle direction of a long gun. So, in the event of a safety failure the threat is minimized. In a holstered gun with a light-pull trigger (yes, that MKII had a very light trigger pull) only held by a single safety, I can't control the muzzle direction.
I appreciate your viewpoint. I used to think the same. 2 things changed my mind. First, I carry in good quality holsters that cover my trigger, hold gun at a proper angle and are secure on my belt. The other thing was I was walking with a front slung shotgun, muzzle down with someone behind me.....I fell face first in the mud. I don’t think my gun covered them, but it could have. I’ve never fallen before and the gun didn’t go off, but it is something I think about when setting up my stuff.
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Old April 26, 2019, 11:50 AM   #33
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We should also note that in much of the world the police handgun was a semi-automatic long before the trend was seen in the US. 7.65 & 9mm (in all it's lengths) were quite common as the police (and often military) handgun.
Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow. Jan Stevenson described the 1960s roadblock:
US: Multiple patrol cars in echelon to block the road, cops hunkering over their hoods with revolvers and shotguns.
France: A polite gendarme with clipboard. The honest traveler probably didn't notice the two gendarmes in the bushes with a Chatelleraut.

When the Red Army Faction and the Baader-Meinhof Gang convinced German police that they needed something stouter than a PP .32 and launched the 1970s trials, most were good with the 9mms selected. One tough outfit shed a tear when they had to give up their .357 Magnums, though.
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Old April 26, 2019, 12:01 PM   #34
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I respect your choice about what is, and isn't safe carry, for you, there really aren't any wrong choices in personal choice like this, only choices I don't agree with.

But I do wonder if you considered alternatives. A good holster goes a long way in controlling the muzzle. The right design covers and protects the trigger from brush snagging. A full flap holster goes even further.

The other thing that occurred to me was, why not just not load the chamber?? A .22 Sport & plinking gun doesn't need to be "combat ready" like a self defense arm, why not just carry with the chamber empty?

I'm just idly curious, if you considered things like that, and if so, why they weren't good enough.

Of course, "I just wanted a different gun" is a COMPLETELY FINE answer, too.
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Old April 26, 2019, 12:11 PM   #35
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Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow. Jan Stevenson described the 1960s roadblock:
US: Multiple patrol cars in echelon to block the road, cops hunkering over their hoods with revolvers and shotguns.
France: A polite gendarme with clipboard. The honest traveler probably didn't notice the two gendarmes in the bushes with a Chatelleraut.
This is interesting, do you consider an SMG to be a "long gun"??

I was in Germany in the later 70s, the police always patrolled in pairs, one with a 9mm pistol, the other with a 9mm SMG.

the German roadblock was two VW vans, blocking the road, with a tripod mounted belt fed machinegun between them. I saw one set up to stop a "speeder" a few km outside of Vilseck.

Germans don't have speed limits many places, and many places where they do they aren't enforced, but when they DO enforce them, they REALLY do!
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Old April 26, 2019, 01:07 PM   #36
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This is exactly the reason I got rid of my Ruger MKII. I just didn't feel comfortable knowing that the only thing protecting my leg from getting shot if a brush grabbed the trigger was that single safety.
A full-flap holster?

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Old April 26, 2019, 01:30 PM   #37
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A .22 Sport & plinking gun doesn't need to be "combat ready" like a self defense arm, why not just carry with the chamber empty?
Yes, a full-flap holster would have made me feel better. The idea of carrying on an empty chamber works fine - until you want to actually shoot just one shot or two. After shooting less than a full mag and desiring to continue on carrying, you have to remove the magazine, rack the chamber to empty it, put that round back into the magazine and re-insert the magazine. Not a total deal killer but still not nearly as convenient as simply dropping a revolver back into the holster.
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Old April 27, 2019, 07:16 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow. Jan Stevenson described the 1960s roadblock:
US: Multiple patrol cars in echelon to block the road, cops hunkering over their hoods with revolvers and shotguns.
France: A polite gendarme with clipboard. The honest traveler probably didn't notice the two gendarmes in the bushes with a Chatelleraut.

When the Red Army Faction and the Baader-Meinhof Gang convinced German police that they needed something stouter than a PP .32 and launched the 1970s trials, most were good with the 9mms selected. One tough outfit shed a tear when they had to give up their .357 Magnums, though.
And IIRC the Châtellerault was one of the major MAS/MAC arms competitions and it's clear which one won. BAR none I think.
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Old April 27, 2019, 02:18 PM   #39
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"This is interesting, do you consider an SMG to be a "long gun"??"

I don't think anyone really considers the Chatelleraut Mle 1924/29 light machine gun anything other than a long gun.

Chatelleraut never produced submachine guns.

When I was in France in the early 1980s it wasn't uncommon at all to see regular police walking beats with either a MAS-36 rifle or a MAT-49 submachine gun.
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Old April 27, 2019, 02:26 PM   #40
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"Germans don't have speed limits many places, and many places where they do they aren't enforced, but when they DO enforce them, they REALLY do! "

Let me tell you about French crowd control...

My second trip to France we were in Paris when a major trans European balloon race was taking off from the Place de la Condorde (same race in which Maxie Anderson was killed... Hum... according to the Gordon Benett Cup records, that was June 25, 1983)...

Anyway, we wanted to get across the plaza, but the crowds were enormous, so we started back tracking to see if we could find a clear way to cross.

One of the side streets we passed was a staging area for the riot police...

Lots of uniformed police with MAS-36 rifles, lots of armored riot police, and...

An armored car with what appeared to be a dual, or possibly a quad, mount machine gun in a turret.
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Old April 27, 2019, 06:52 PM   #41
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Yes, but I think the Europeans were likelier to go to the long gun sooner than Americans, pre-SWAT, anyhow.
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This is interesting, do you consider an SMG to be a "long gun"??

I was in Germany in the later 70s, the police always patrolled in pairs, one with a 9mm pistol, the other with a 9mm SMG.
My question about SMGs was in reference to the German police carrying them, virtually everywhere.
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Old May 10, 2019, 08:17 PM   #42
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It's my impression that the police force didn't widely issue 1911's as part of their progression from revolver to semi-auto sidearms. It's as if they skipped it. Is that true?
Yes. The 1911 was not widely adopted by law enforcement either before WWII or after. While not widely used it did have a presence in both 45 acp and 38 Super. Let's skip to the post war period.

The transition from revolvers to semis did not really begin until the late 1960's early 1970's it was a slow transition. It did not really take off until the mid 1980s.

For most of the 20th century the revolver was the gun of law enforcement by preference. Both law enforcement in general and the public were loath to give it up. The semi was considered a military weapon, a "ammo burner" a "jam'o'matic". The transition was slow.

The main reason the 1911 or any other single action pistol (like the Hi- Power) was passed over at the end of WWII was a change in military doctrine in the U.S. and elsewhere concerning pistols.

In the U.S. and internationally doctrine came to favor the da/sa pistol with a decocker and more than 10 rounds of 9mm ammo as the way to go. The greater number of rounds were considered a plus and the guns better suited to military and law enforcement use than a single action. Both the guns and the ammo were lighter and easier to carry. The U.S. in 1946 wanted to leave the 1911 behind and move to a da/sa gun in 9mm but the Army (Congress actually) could not afford the transition away from the 1911 until 1986 and the adoption of the Beretta 92.

Now many Police departments had switched to semis. Smith and Wessons led the way. But with the adoption by the U.S. military of the M9 and the M11 the flood gates were open and the "wondernines" were all over the place and in the holsters of cops. In the late 1980's (1998-89) Glock showed up and by the early 1990s the transition was headed to being complete.

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Old May 11, 2019, 09:21 AM   #43
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Didn't the US Military "gift" a lot of surplus 1911-A1's to rural law enforcement agencies that lacked financial resources after WWII?
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Old May 12, 2019, 06:55 AM   #44
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I don't know about 1911s, but I do know that after World War I the military gave a LOT of Enfield M1917 rifles and M1917 revolvers (Colt & S&W) to various law enforcement groups.

The US Border Patrol in the 1920s was officially armed with M1917s. Charles Askins talks about how new recruits would carry those only until they could afford to get themselves something different, normally a Colt or S&W .38 and a Winchester M1907 semi-auto in .351.
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Old May 13, 2019, 01:05 PM   #45
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Interesting to know that the first company to make a semi in the U.S. in 9mm was Colt when it introduced the Colt Commander in 1949 in 45 acp, 38 Super and 9mm. This was Colt's effort to convince the Army that it did not need to drop the 1911 to get a lighter weight gun.

This was followed a few years later in 1955 by S&Ws Model 39. A da/sa pistols in 9mm. This was used in Viet Nam and made it's way to law enforcement in the U.S. years later.

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Old May 13, 2019, 10:40 PM   #46
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Although we had a small cadre of individuals who resisted firearms training the majority enthusiastically participated firing over 100,000 rounds of pistol ammunition each year. Pretty good for a department of approximately 125 officers.
I will also chime in and say that a lot of this "most cops aren't gun people and hardly ever ever practice" can't be used as a blanket statement. My agency isn't large, but it's not tiny at 50 sworn. I would say a solid 2/3rds are, in fact, "gun people" in that they have numerous firearms, buy/sell/trade to get newer items, and shoot at least more frequently than annual qualification (and often at least monthly). Same goes for most agencies around me as well.

I get it, if you go to many agencies in areas where the sporting use of firearms is much less popular then yeah, many if not most cops won't be "gun people." But, there are many areas outside of LA or NYC.
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