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Old November 21, 2013, 05:12 PM   #1
whiplash
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Help troubleshoot my handgun grip/poi problem?

Ok folks I'm looking for some help in troubleshooting a small problem that's been buggin me. When shooting any semi handguns my groups generally impact at the 9 o' clock area (multiple ranges, say 4in off at 15yrds). This happens when shooting my duty G22, XD45, or any 1911. After being issued a 1911 for duty couple years ago, I was instructed on the thumbs forward (right thumb riding the safety) grip, and that's the grip I've stuck with. Since then I've been issued the G22. But after more frequent shooting of all those models mentioned, to included other folks guns, I can't seem to make center hits. I've looked at a handgun correction chart which mentions trigger finger depth, but have tried more, less, and in the middle to no avail. I believe it may have to do with grip pressure in the hand, to much or not enough, but can't settle on anything. I've made rear sight adjustment to the G22, but have no more left. Does anyone have anything I could try or adjust within my grip? I know to work on smooth press to the rear. I know it may be hard to recommend something without seeing the grip in person...but I'm desperate to try anything. Am I combat accurate? Yes. Do I want groups in the center? Yes. Any help or recommendations would be much appreciated!
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Old November 21, 2013, 05:57 PM   #2
g.willikers
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One of the usual suspects in shooting left is over gripping the gun hand and under gripping the support hand, assuming you're shooting two handed, of course.
Most of the grip should come from the wrists and support hand.
Over gripping the gun hand can cause the trigger finger to bind, forcing the hand and gun off center.
You know it's correct when the trigger finger is flexible and the gun is rigid.
Make sure the thumbs are pointed at the target, which cause the wrists to straighten and lock properly.
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Old November 21, 2013, 07:09 PM   #3
whiplash
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Thanks gw. I've posted this elsewhere as well, and was also told about support hand providing most the grip pressure. I'm sure my style grip is not helping as I've always had most pressure from the firing hand, and very little pressure from the support hand. I will definately work on changing/adjusting that and see what happens.
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Old November 21, 2013, 07:36 PM   #4
MarkCO
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gw gave you some good advice.

Many top shooters do specific exercises to improve their grip strength. There have also been some tests done related to speed shooting, accuracy and grip pressure. At some point it is overkill, but maximum grip pressure in the 150 pounds range allows you to maintain 100 pounds of grip pressure with the support hand and maybe 60 to 70 pounds with the string hand, which is about optimum, without fatigue. So if your grip is not strong, increasing it will help your shooting as well. If we are talking about 1 round, slow fire, significant support hand grip pressure is not needed and may be detrimental, and we certainly want a relaxed trigger finger.

Also, make sure your trigger finger is well mated to the trigger and coming straight back without another part of the trigger or hand putting side force onto the trigger guard or frame. The long pull of the Glock tends to have many shooters put a side or downforce into the gun. Sure, increasing support hand grip pressure alleviates some of this, but you might as well try to improve the technique here too.
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Old November 21, 2013, 09:06 PM   #5
Frank Ettin
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Are you shooting with both eyes open? Have you correctly identified your dominant eye?
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Old November 21, 2013, 10:48 PM   #6
whiplash
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Yes, both eyes open and dominant eye used. Good info, now just waiting for range time this weekend
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Old November 21, 2013, 11:45 PM   #7
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiplash
Yes, both eyes open and dominant eye used. Good info, now just waiting for range time this weekend
When you're at the range try closing your non-dominant eye.

When in the course of teaching our beginner classes I've encountered the sort of issue you're described it often has related to an eye dominance issue. Some people have a weak eye dominance, and for some people eye dominance changes.

Also try some careful dry firing and see if the sight picture shifts as the striker falls.
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Old November 22, 2013, 12:04 PM   #8
pilpens
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Youtube has lots of videos on grip -- I like Todd Jarret's and Magpul's videos.
===
Having my support hand thumb point at the target helps me center my shots. This could force an awkward feeling angle on the support side shoulder, elbow, wrist but with practice can be overcome.
===
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Old November 22, 2013, 08:30 PM   #9
JohnKSa
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If you're shooting good consistent groups (slowfire groups that are no more than 2"-3" at 15 yards) and not seeing any significant change in the overall POI when you up the speed (even though the group sizes grow a bit with the increased shooting speed), then I would be tempted to adjust the sights to bring the groups on target.

That said, most of the time when I see this kind of thing, the shooter is not getting consistent or tight groups. If the groups aren't tight then the issue is almost certainly recoil anticipation/flinching and that needs to be addressed before adjusting the sights.
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