Questions for Handgun Hunters

CobrayCommando · October 29, 2006, 05:40 PM

This site: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...thods.html#lbt

Claims that damage other then permanent crush cavity can be achieved with a flat nosed bullet, even traveling at relatively low velocities. According to his data, a bullet with a meplat of .22 inches in diameter going 1400 fps will create an actual wound tract of .5 inches, however the same bullet at 1000 fps will create an actual wound tract of .313 inches. I have to assume that these bullets are of equal weight.

Apparently the actual caliber of the bullet doesn't really matter so much except to penetration. According to him it was discovered that it is not the shoulder that caused the damage even if it was a 90 degree ridge, but rather the flatness of the nose. The meplat is where its at.

Does this ring true to you handgun hunters? I thought the meplat was largely to ensure greater penetration because with a meplat a bullet is much less likely to yaw.

And to what extent is this true? Can you force a ping pong ball into a .44 Magnum wound if you use a bullet with a .22 inch meplat? What about a +P .45 ACP with the same meplat, how can the actual wound be smaller then the bullet itself. It defies the laws of physics. I understand that the wound sort of collapses on itself no matter what you use, IE you cannot see light through a bullet wound through and through an animal. But how can it shrink to .313 inches?!

This implies that you could not force a .45 inch dowel through the wound tract without tearing flesh, which has to be a complete falsity right? Or, he might mean that its like shooting paper, where there are lots of little tears but the actual hole is small, but you could still force a dowel of the same diameter through that wound without destroying more flesh. In your experience/opinion, how does stellate wounding caused by round nosed bullets (like using FMJ on a paper target with all of the little tears around it as mentioned above) compare to a clean sharp wound like something caused by a wadcutter or similar? Does it cause more or less bleeding, faster or slower failure of something like the heart?

What is better, to completely crush the tissue, or to create a lot of tears radiating away from a much smaller permanent crushed tissue?

mete · October 29, 2006, 06:07 PM

You would learn a whole lot more by shooting animals , woodchucks etc, and compare various bullets. I have and found that a RN bullet pushes aside flesh while a SWC will cut a full caliber hole in the tissue .So there is definitely a beneficial effect from the shoulder. I'd much rather cut tissue than temporarily push it aside !! Remember that effectiveness whether hunting or SD depends on penetrating into the vital organs and doing damage to them.Exit holes are good since they let blood out and air in. It has long been known [ though they keep trying to reinvent the wheel] that ,in order of increasing effectiveness , RN,FN,SWC, JHP are all different . Proper placement is #1, and bigger caliber makes bigger hole !!

CobrayCommando · October 29, 2006, 06:22 PM

Isn't it possible that the SWC meplat was actually doing the damage, like this guy says? Or were you using a SWC with a round nose?

So basically what your saying is that in your experience, RN bullets like FMJ are generally less effective, assuming same shot placement?

whiskey · October 29, 2006, 08:08 PM

It is a well know fact that heavy, large meplat hard cast lead bullets are very effective for hunting with revolvers. Companies like buffalo bore, garrett and now even Federal offer heavy, wide bullets for hunting.

If you visit www.sixgunner.com you will quickly see the favorite loads are Wide Flat Nose hard cast solids. These bullets offer ample wound channels and extreme penetration.

swampdog · October 29, 2006, 08:33 PM

I recently shot a deer in the chest. Nice hole in his butt. It looked .44 caliber to me. LOL

The effectiveness of flat-nosed bullets was well known in "The War Between the States", btw.

It must have been a bad time, when you could sit around with your buddies and be glad you got hit in the guts with a ball, instead of a mini.

I use round nose for smallgame and SWC for large game.

CobrayCommando · October 29, 2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

ball, instead of a mini.

Yeah, I was just reading something about that in Gunshot Wounds by Vincent Di Maio. So for certain then a bullet with a meplat produces a better wound cavity then one without.

It appears that the opinion of speedxmeplat diameter = killing power as long as penetration is adequate is supported by the Sixgun crowd.

Travismaine · October 29, 2006, 11:55 PM

I have shot a bear every year for the past 8 years wirth a ruger 44 using ball ammo. No shot was more then 10 feet though.

Travis

CobrayCommando · October 30, 2006, 12:53 AM

What kind of bear, what terminal performance did you get with ball?

Mannlicher · October 30, 2006, 05:13 PM

Don't read so much, and go afield and find out for yourself. Trust me, a .45 Colt with a 250 LSWC moving about 900 fps, will drill a deer or hog end to end. Who cares about the permanent crush cavity or any of that stuff. Dead is dead.

CobrayCommando · October 30, 2006, 06:11 PM

The reason I care is that I'm trying to make a correlation with self defense, where time is definately a factor.

I'm getting a Springfield Mil-Spec very soon, so I'll try to follow your advice and hunt something or another here in Cali with it. I'm fairly certain I could get a 250 grainer going 900 FPS. Maybe a little slower.

whiskey · October 30, 2006, 06:36 PM

I would recommend a good hollow point in a .45ACP. If you are using a .44 or 45 cal revolver then use the flat point leads. I do not know of an effective (read: reliable feeding) commercially loaded Large Flat Meplat .45ACP round.

whiskey · October 30, 2006, 06:46 PM

After reading the article you referenced above I am sure that the first part of the article is talking about larger than .40 caliber sixguns and rifles. Usually LBT bullets are popular in .44mag, .45LC, .454, .475 and 45-70 rounds.

I know a lot of handgun hunters, but not many that hunt with a .45ACP.

I have killed a hog with a .45ACP but it is not my weapon of choice. You can take a deer with a .45ACP. I would recommend a hollow point like the XTP. Again, this is not the best hunting handgun and should be avoided by novice handgun hunters IMHO.

CobrayCommando · October 31, 2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

I do not know of an effective (read: reliable feeding) commercially loaded Large Flat Meplat .45ACP round.

Hmmm... It depends on what you mean by large. Measuring the "meplat" of Federal 230 grain HST, it is approx .28 inches wide. .30" wide on Speer Gold Dot 230 grain. So any solid bullet with the same approximate shape, and size of meplat, should feed perfectly.

Plus using Tripp Cobra magazines, which feed the bullet in at a nearly straight angle, even 265 grain .365" meplat bullets should feed fine.

October 29, 2006, 08:08 PM	#4
whiskey Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: Clarksville, TN Posts: 431	It is a well know fact that heavy, large meplat hard cast lead bullets are very effective for hunting with revolvers. Companies like buffalo bore, garrett and now even Federal offer heavy, wide bullets for hunting. If you visit www.sixgunner.com you will quickly see the favorite loads are Wide Flat Nose hard cast solids. These bullets offer ample wound channels and extreme penetration. __________________ "So he cocked both his pistols, spit in the dirt and walked out in to the street."

October 30, 2006, 05:13 PM	#9
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	Don't read so much, and go afield and find out for yourself. Trust me, a .45 Colt with a 250 LSWC moving about 900 fps, will drill a deer or hog end to end. Who cares about the permanent crush cavity or any of that stuff. Dead is dead. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

October 30, 2006, 06:36 PM	#11
whiskey Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: Clarksville, TN Posts: 431	I would recommend a good hollow point in a .45ACP. If you are using a .44 or 45 cal revolver then use the flat point leads. I do not know of an effective (read: reliable feeding) commercially loaded Large Flat Meplat .45ACP round. __________________ "So he cocked both his pistols, spit in the dirt and walked out in to the street."

October 30, 2006, 06:46 PM	#12
whiskey Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: Clarksville, TN Posts: 431	After reading the article you referenced above I am sure that the first part of the article is talking about larger than .40 caliber sixguns and rifles. Usually LBT bullets are popular in .44mag, .45LC, .454, .475 and 45-70 rounds. I know a lot of handgun hunters, but not many that hunt with a .45ACP. I have killed a hog with a .45ACP but it is not my weapon of choice. You can take a deer with a .45ACP. I would recommend a hollow point like the XTP. Again, this is not the best hunting handgun and should be avoided by novice handgun hunters IMHO. __________________ "So he cocked both his pistols, spit in the dirt and walked out in to the street."

October 29, 2006, 05:40 PM	#1
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Questions for Handgun Hunters This site: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...thods.html#lbt Claims that damage other then permanent crush cavity can be achieved with a flat nosed bullet, even traveling at relatively low velocities. According to his data, a bullet with a meplat of .22 inches in diameter going 1400 fps will create an actual wound tract of .5 inches, however the same bullet at 1000 fps will create an actual wound tract of .313 inches. I have to assume that these bullets are of equal weight. Apparently the actual caliber of the bullet doesn't really matter so much except to penetration. According to him it was discovered that it is not the shoulder that caused the damage even if it was a 90 degree ridge, but rather the flatness of the nose. The meplat is where its at. Does this ring true to you handgun hunters? I thought the meplat was largely to ensure greater penetration because with a meplat a bullet is much less likely to yaw. And to what extent is this true? Can you force a ping pong ball into a .44 Magnum wound if you use a bullet with a .22 inch meplat? What about a +P .45 ACP with the same meplat, how can the actual wound be smaller then the bullet itself. It defies the laws of physics. I understand that the wound sort of collapses on itself no matter what you use, IE you cannot see light through a bullet wound through and through an animal. But how can it shrink to .313 inches?! This implies that you could not force a .45 inch dowel through the wound tract without tearing flesh, which has to be a complete falsity right? Or, he might mean that its like shooting paper, where there are lots of little tears but the actual hole is small, but you could still force a dowel of the same diameter through that wound without destroying more flesh. In your experience/opinion, how does stellate wounding caused by round nosed bullets (like using FMJ on a paper target with all of the little tears around it as mentioned above) compare to a clean sharp wound like something caused by a wadcutter or similar? Does it cause more or less bleeding, faster or slower failure of something like the heart? What is better, to completely crush the tissue, or to create a lot of tears radiating away from a much smaller permanent crushed tissue?

October 29, 2006, 06:07 PM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	You would learn a whole lot more by shooting animals , woodchucks etc, and compare various bullets. I have and found that a RN bullet pushes aside flesh while a SWC will cut a full caliber hole in the tissue .So there is definitely a beneficial effect from the shoulder. I'd much rather cut tissue than temporarily push it aside !! Remember that effectiveness whether hunting or SD depends on penetrating into the vital organs and doing damage to them.Exit holes are good since they let blood out and air in. It has long been known [ though they keep trying to reinvent the wheel] that ,in order of increasing effectiveness , RN,FN,SWC, JHP are all different . Proper placement is #1, and bigger caliber makes bigger hole !!

October 29, 2006, 06:22 PM	#3
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Isn't it possible that the SWC meplat was actually doing the damage, like this guy says? Or were you using a SWC with a round nose? So basically what your saying is that in your experience, RN bullets like FMJ are generally less effective, assuming same shot placement?

October 29, 2006, 08:33 PM	#5
swampdog Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2006 Location: Dismal Swamp, NC Posts: 338	I recently shot a deer in the chest. Nice hole in his butt. It looked .44 caliber to me. LOL The effectiveness of flat-nosed bullets was well known in "The War Between the States", btw. It must have been a bad time, when you could sit around with your buddies and be glad you got hit in the guts with a ball, instead of a mini. I use round nose for smallgame and SWC for large game.

October 29, 2006, 11:55 PM	#7
Travismaine Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2006 Posts: 147	I have shot a bear every year for the past 8 years wirth a ruger 44 using ball ammo. No shot was more then 10 feet though. Travis

October 30, 2006, 12:53 AM	#8
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	What kind of bear, what terminal performance did you get with ball?

October 30, 2006, 06:11 PM	#10
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	The reason I care is that I'm trying to make a correlation with self defense, where time is definately a factor. I'm getting a Springfield Mil-Spec very soon, so I'll try to follow your advice and hunt something or another here in Cali with it. I'm fairly certain I could get a 250 grainer going 900 FPS. Maybe a little slower.