Down to three different CCW choices. Any thoughts? - Page 2

Shadi Khalil · July 9, 2013, 04:55 PM

I would change the W to an M and go with the Kahr. I wouldn't even consider the LC9 after shooting one and dislike manual safeties on SD guns

WVsig · July 9, 2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

However, those who have not trained in low light or who have poor training overall, may not fully understand the utility of a laser...

Most arguments against the laser boil down to, "I don't know how to use it, therefore it can't be used."

I think that is a narrow and condescending statement about those who chose not to use a laser and honestly would expect more from a staff member of the board. We respect your opinion and your advice I would think you would extend the same courtesy. Choosing not to use a laser does not make one poorly trained or too ignorant to justify their decision.

Within this thread there are reasonable arguments against them. It has been discussed here and many other places. You clearly see them as a useful tool others do not. Please do not dismiss those who disagree with you as being ignorant or untrained.

In the end the OP needs to go and shoot each of these guns an decide for himself. I agree 100% he needs to pick the one that he shoots best without the laser then decide if he wants a laser on a carry gun and if he does he needs to train on how to properly use it. There is no right or wrong answer.

Cheapshooter · July 9, 2013, 11:18 PM

Quote:

I would change the W to an M and go with the Kahr. and dislike manual safeties on SD guns

I completely agree with this suggestion for the OP as an alternative to the three he mentioned. I don't have a particular dislike for the LC9, but I do have a strong preference for the CM9 after I won a silent auction bid on one at an NRA event. I agree with the manual safety aspect as well. With the long trigger pull of the KAHR it is unnecessary. Even though the CM9 is striker fired as opposed to the DAO hammer fired LC9.
The KAHR CM9 is very comfortably carried in my Theis hybrid IWB holster, but can also be easily carried, and concealed in a DeSantis Nemisis pocket holster in the front pocket of most of my pants.

pax · July 9, 2013, 11:34 PM

WVsig,

I'm sorry that came across as condescending. Not my intent. However, the arguments against lasers do pretty much boil down to not knowing how to use them efficiently or effectively -- and that lack of knowledge does in fact boil down to a lack of training with the tool.

The OP wants to buy a gun. Since two of the three guns on his list do have lasers, it seems reasonable to believe that he would like to have a laser on his gun. Telling him to erase his entire list and start over probably isn't doing him any favors.

The OP is very intelligently looking at Crimson Trace lasers, which don't have the "it takes forever to find the switch and it distracts you while you're trying to turn it on" issue that other brands of lasers can have. CT lasers operate with hand pressure in a normal firing grip, which makes that comment one that comes from simple ignorance of how that specific tool works. Lack of training or education or handling the product.

Those who have trained with lasers find them faster on target, not slower. But those who haven't trained with them usually haven't used them in conditions where lasers work well. Before you decide that's an insult, hear me out: Lasers work well in low light, and do a really poor job in full daylight on a sunny afternoon. Since most shooters only ever shoot in full daylight on a sunny afternoon, most shooters don't have the foggiest idea how well a laser improves the situation in low light. Again, no insult, just a statement of fact.

Even those who do regularly shoot in low light have rarely taken even a single professional shooting class conducted entirely in low light, especially not one that allows them to shoot at moving targets in the dark or to move in the dark while shooting or to shoot at moving targets in the dark while they themselves are also moving. That's some specialized training, not available to most people, so it's no insult to observe that many people have not had the opportunity to take such a class or shoot in such conditions. In all of those circumstances, with moving targets in the dark, a properly designed laser far outshines all other forms of sighting tools, including night sights.

Of course, a well trained shooter already has a stable shooting platform that does 90% of the work in low light (so they do not need the laser even with moving targets), but the laser can give the shooter that extra bit of an edge -- improving both speed and accuracy, especially at increased distances. It allows you to shoot accurately from downed and compromised positions in low light, something even well trained shooters can find difficult. It can really be a huge boon to those of us with poor vision who might get our glasses knocked off in a scuffle, or might not have time to pull our glasses on when there's a bedroom intruder after dark.

People want to set lasers and flashlights against each other, as if the two are designed to fill the same need. But the two tools aren't in the same category at all: Flashlights can be indispensible for identifying your target, and they are excellent for helping that shadowy figure walking toward you in the parking lot decide to go somewhere else and panhandle someone else, if that's what he's doing. But flashlights are no aid to fast shooting in the dark; they are slow and fumbly and they often temporarily blind the shooter who hasn't trained a lot in low light, when he lights up his own hand or his slide or the cover he's using from a few inches away. Flashlights don't compete with lasers because they are not the same type of tool. A laser is a sighting tool. A flashlight is not a sighting tool, but a target identifying tool.

Finally, there's this recurring idea that lasers are fiddly and prone to breakage and always dead batteries and yadda yadda. Some of that comes from old guys who don't realize the state of the industry has changed -- they tried a laser when lasers first came out, 20 years ago, and didn't think they were very good. That would be like hating all computers, now, because you tried an IBM 386 in 1994.

But that's not the only reason that old idea that lasers break a lot stays around. The other reason it stays around is because people buy crap, then are surprised when crap functions like crap. The OP is a smart guy, looking at CT lasers. Again, those are good products from a good company, so he's not likely to have that problem. But someone who's handled only one or two lasers from one or two companies might not realize there's a difference (just as somone who has only ever seen Uncle Mike's holsters might not realize that real holsters work better). No judgment there -- it isn't easy to get your hands on a lot of the best gear, because most local gun shops just don't stock much of it. And, of course, because the gear really only functions well on the range in low light, and now we've come full circle: most shooters only shoot in full daylight because that's all most ranges allow, so even if they've had their hands on a good brand, they often haven't had a chance to wring it out and compare it on the range.

Finally, I should add that one more reason people think lasers break a lot is because they aren't familiar with how to maintain the gear. Just as you'd occasionally look at your holster for signs of wear, check your magazine springs, and clean your firearm, you need to swap batteries from time to time. I swap mine at daylight savings time, twice a year, and clean the lens every time I clean the gun. No fuss. It's not like stuff magically breaks -- it gets dirty or wears out just as everything else in your self defense bag does, and needs maintenance just as everything else does. No extra fuss, just normal routine.

Again, I really am sorry it sounded condescending and it really wasn't my intent. Hope this helps make things a little more clear.

pax,

Kathy

dean1818 · July 10, 2013, 06:09 AM

Its not on your list, but you should consider the shield

Fantastic CCW weapon

dean1818 · July 10, 2013, 06:12 AM

Lasers are good for

Star trek

Getting the dog and cat some exercise

I did the crimson trace thing...... Not for me

Flashlight and night sights are much better

damo450 · July 10, 2013, 01:25 PM

Thanks everyone for your input. I have an LCP (so does my wife) both with CT lasers on them and they are dead nuts accurate. Never failing. But I keep my AZ edition in the safe and dont carry it. She carries hers some and I would have to admit she loves the laser.

(On a side note. I had a good friend buy a LC9 with that junk laser max on it. I threw it away, after hitting it with a hammer. he yelled and cursed me until I went and bought him the CT.)

We keep about a dozen surefire lights laying around the house and in vehicles in case of home invasion/break in etc. But I have to say one thing. I have never seen mentioned so much before. All this talk of shooting in the dark and using the laser for it. That is not a very intelligent statement. The best tool for low light shooting IMHO is a good set of night sights for precise shot placement. The ONLY tool to use if attempting to shoot in the dark is a good light. Because if the light is on then it's not dark.

Like I said, I am more of a rifleman and when I do carry, its open or hidden in my bag. I am trying to embrace CCW. I have taken several carbine classes and this whole shooting in the dark argument on here is scary. Light up the target like the griswolds house on Christmas then double tap center mass

. But for the love of God dont go shooting in the dark. There are children in many homes. And for any new shooter to get the idea a laser is a good item to have for home defense should they get the bright (dim?) idea to shoot in the dark is a very, very, very bad tid bit to be remembered.

Tonight I pick up the Sig P938. Smokin deal and I am a sig man. I will get rid of a P220 for a 1911 (sig of course) and do some training on that silly SAO trigger. Should be GTG. This has been a lively conversation folks!

pax · July 10, 2013, 02:28 PM

Damo,

That's a good purchase, and I am sure you will be happy with it.

Please note that there is a significant difference between low light and no light.

As I pointed out.

pax

ScotchMan · July 10, 2013, 03:45 PM

Yeah damo, something like 80% of critical incidents happen in low light. That isn't necessarily dark. That is a parking garage, alley, dimly lit street, etc. Bad guys like to operate where people can't see them as easily. You could be able to identify your target without a flashlight, but greatly benefit from a sighting system such as a laser.

Another example would be a movie theater. The TV show Best Defense did a show on basically the Aurora shooting, and ultimately the response they showed was an armed citizen taking cover behind a seat and reaching out with his arm to shoot. Without the laser it would have been very difficult to score good hits. With the laser, he could aim as well as using his iron sights, without exposing so much of his body to an active shooter.

No one is talking about taking shots in pure darkness with nothing but a laser

Old Stony · July 14, 2013, 05:20 AM

I wonder why lots of police depts. don't issue weapons with Lasers? Maybe they are undertrained and unable to use them? Since the majority of situations they would run into would be in the dark, you would think there run of the mill street officers would benefit from them.
Perhaps maybe they think some night sights and a good flashlight will do the job.
I know some of special teams use them on specialized weapons but the street cops seem to shun gadgetry.
Just some thoughts from an old guy.

kahrguy · July 14, 2013, 05:50 AM

Buyn the CW9 kahr OR upgrade to the P9 but the mid sized kahr is a very good iwb carry choice

Beentown71 · July 14, 2013, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahrguy

Buyn the CW9 kahr OR upgrade to the P9 but the mid sized kahr is a very good iwb carry choice

Yep.

Tomac · July 14, 2013, 07:11 AM

Another vote for the Kahr: Very KISS w/excellent trigger and no manual safety to remember/manipulate under stress. I, personally, have no use for handgun-mounted lasers (I prefer tritium night sights that don't depend on batteries) but YMMV.
Tomac

July 9, 2013, 04:55 PM	#26
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	Down to three different CCW choices. Any thoughts? I would change the W to an M and go with the Kahr. I wouldn't even consider the LC9 after shooting one and dislike manual safeties on SD guns

July 9, 2013, 11:34 PM	#29
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	WVsig, I'm sorry that came across as condescending. Not my intent. However, the arguments against lasers do pretty much boil down to not knowing how to use them efficiently or effectively -- and that lack of knowledge does in fact boil down to a lack of training with the tool. The OP wants to buy a gun. Since two of the three guns on his list do have lasers, it seems reasonable to believe that he would like to have a laser on his gun. Telling him to erase his entire list and start over probably isn't doing him any favors. The OP is very intelligently looking at Crimson Trace lasers, which don't have the "it takes forever to find the switch and it distracts you while you're trying to turn it on" issue that other brands of lasers can have. CT lasers operate with hand pressure in a normal firing grip, which makes that comment one that comes from simple ignorance of how that specific tool works. Lack of training or education or handling the product. Those who have trained with lasers find them faster on target, not slower. But those who haven't trained with them usually haven't used them in conditions where lasers work well. Before you decide that's an insult, hear me out: Lasers work well in low light, and do a really poor job in full daylight on a sunny afternoon. Since most shooters only ever shoot in full daylight on a sunny afternoon, most shooters don't have the foggiest idea how well a laser improves the situation in low light. Again, no insult, just a statement of fact. Even those who do regularly shoot in low light have rarely taken even a single professional shooting class conducted entirely in low light, especially not one that allows them to shoot at moving targets in the dark or to move in the dark while shooting or to shoot at moving targets in the dark while they themselves are also moving. That's some specialized training, not available to most people, so it's no insult to observe that many people have not had the opportunity to take such a class or shoot in such conditions. In all of those circumstances, with moving targets in the dark, a properly designed laser far outshines all other forms of sighting tools, including night sights. Of course, a well trained shooter already has a stable shooting platform that does 90% of the work in low light (so they do not need the laser even with moving targets), but the laser can give the shooter that extra bit of an edge -- improving both speed and accuracy, especially at increased distances. It allows you to shoot accurately from downed and compromised positions in low light, something even well trained shooters can find difficult. It can really be a huge boon to those of us with poor vision who might get our glasses knocked off in a scuffle, or might not have time to pull our glasses on when there's a bedroom intruder after dark. People want to set lasers and flashlights against each other, as if the two are designed to fill the same need. But the two tools aren't in the same category at all: Flashlights can be indispensible for identifying your target, and they are excellent for helping that shadowy figure walking toward you in the parking lot decide to go somewhere else and panhandle someone else, if that's what he's doing. But flashlights are no aid to fast shooting in the dark; they are slow and fumbly and they often temporarily blind the shooter who hasn't trained a lot in low light, when he lights up his own hand or his slide or the cover he's using from a few inches away. Flashlights don't compete with lasers because they are not the same type of tool. A laser is a sighting tool. A flashlight is not a sighting tool, but a target identifying tool. Finally, there's this recurring idea that lasers are fiddly and prone to breakage and always dead batteries and yadda yadda. Some of that comes from old guys who don't realize the state of the industry has changed -- they tried a laser when lasers first came out, 20 years ago, and didn't think they were very good. That would be like hating all computers, now, because you tried an IBM 386 in 1994. But that's not the only reason that old idea that lasers break a lot stays around. The other reason it stays around is because people buy crap, then are surprised when crap functions like crap. The OP is a smart guy, looking at CT lasers. Again, those are good products from a good company, so he's not likely to have that problem. But someone who's handled only one or two lasers from one or two companies might not realize there's a difference (just as somone who has only ever seen Uncle Mike's holsters might not realize that real holsters work better). No judgment there -- it isn't easy to get your hands on a lot of the best gear, because most local gun shops just don't stock much of it. And, of course, because the gear really only functions well on the range in low light, and now we've come full circle: most shooters only shoot in full daylight because that's all most ranges allow, so even if they've had their hands on a good brand, they often haven't had a chance to wring it out and compare it on the range. Finally, I should add that one more reason people think lasers break a lot is because they aren't familiar with how to maintain the gear. Just as you'd occasionally look at your holster for signs of wear, check your magazine springs, and clean your firearm, you need to swap batteries from time to time. I swap mine at daylight savings time, twice a year, and clean the lens every time I clean the gun. No fuss. It's not like stuff magically breaks -- it gets dirty or wears out just as everything else in your self defense bag does, and needs maintenance just as everything else does. No extra fuss, just normal routine. Again, I really am sorry it sounded condescending and it really wasn't my intent. Hope this helps make things a little more clear. pax, Kathy __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

July 10, 2013, 06:09 AM	#30
dean1818 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Frisco Texas Posts: 844	Its not on your list, but you should consider the shield Fantastic CCW weapon __________________ An imperfect servant of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Buying American made, wherever I still can

July 10, 2013, 06:12 AM	#31
dean1818 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Frisco Texas Posts: 844	Lasers are good for Star trek Getting the dog and cat some exercise I did the crimson trace thing...... Not for me Flashlight and night sights are much better __________________ An imperfect servant of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Buying American made, wherever I still can

July 10, 2013, 01:25 PM	#32
damo450 Member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Posts: 42	Wow!! What a debate i have started. Thanks everyone for your input. I have an LCP (so does my wife) both with CT lasers on them and they are dead nuts accurate. Never failing. But I keep my AZ edition in the safe and dont carry it. She carries hers some and I would have to admit she loves the laser. (On a side note. I had a good friend buy a LC9 with that junk laser max on it. I threw it away, after hitting it with a hammer. he yelled and cursed me until I went and bought him the CT.) We keep about a dozen surefire lights laying around the house and in vehicles in case of home invasion/break in etc. But I have to say one thing. I have never seen mentioned so much before. All this talk of shooting in the dark and using the laser for it. That is not a very intelligent statement. The best tool for low light shooting IMHO is a good set of night sights for precise shot placement. The ONLY tool to use if attempting to shoot in the dark is a good light. Because if the light is on then it's not dark. Like I said, I am more of a rifleman and when I do carry, its open or hidden in my bag. I am trying to embrace CCW. I have taken several carbine classes and this whole shooting in the dark argument on here is scary. Light up the target like the griswolds house on Christmas then double tap center mass. But for the love of God dont go shooting in the dark. There are children in many homes. And for any new shooter to get the idea a laser is a good item to have for home defense should they get the bright (dim?) idea to shoot in the dark is a very, very, very bad tid bit to be remembered. Tonight I pick up the Sig P938. Smokin deal and I am a sig man. I will get rid of a P220 for a 1911 (sig of course) and do some training on that silly SAO trigger. Should be GTG. This has been a lively conversation folks!

July 10, 2013, 02:28 PM	#33
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Damo, That's a good purchase, and I am sure you will be happy with it. Please note that there is a significant difference between low light and no light. As I pointed out. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

July 10, 2013, 03:45 PM	#34
ScotchMan Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 1,368	Yeah damo, something like 80% of critical incidents happen in low light. That isn't necessarily dark. That is a parking garage, alley, dimly lit street, etc. Bad guys like to operate where people can't see them as easily. You could be able to identify your target without a flashlight, but greatly benefit from a sighting system such as a laser. Another example would be a movie theater. The TV show Best Defense did a show on basically the Aurora shooting, and ultimately the response they showed was an armed citizen taking cover behind a seat and reaching out with his arm to shoot. Without the laser it would have been very difficult to score good hits. With the laser, he could aim as well as using his iron sights, without exposing so much of his body to an active shooter. No one is talking about taking shots in pure darkness with nothing but a laser __________________ Everyday Loadout NRA Instructor NRA Member

July 14, 2013, 05:20 AM	#35
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I wonder why lots of police depts. don't issue weapons with Lasers? Maybe they are undertrained and unable to use them? Since the majority of situations they would run into would be in the dark, you would think there run of the mill street officers would benefit from them. Perhaps maybe they think some night sights and a good flashlight will do the job. I know some of special teams use them on specialized weapons but the street cops seem to shun gadgetry. Just some thoughts from an old guy.

July 14, 2013, 05:50 AM	#36
kahrguy Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2012 Posts: 561	Buyn the CW9 kahr OR upgrade to the P9 but the mid sized kahr is a very good iwb carry choice

July 14, 2013, 07:11 AM	#38
Tomac Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Caldwell, Idaho Posts: 511	Another vote for the Kahr: Very KISS w/excellent trigger and no manual safety to remember/manipulate under stress. I, personally, have no use for handgun-mounted lasers (I prefer tritium night sights that don't depend on batteries) but YMMV. Tomac __________________ "His Universe, His rules." - Tomac