.45 LC bullet spin

ECM4 · January 2, 2020, 05:17 PM

I was running into a problem with bullets spinning after crimp. I figured I flared the mouth too much and I pulled the bullets and re-sized. I sat the bullet into a resized case and it sat in there fine. I reloaded one without flaring the case mouth. And the bullet went in fine with no lead shavings. Has anyone ever just skipped flaring the mouth of the case and go straight to seating and crimping? I don’t really see why I couldn’t since the bullets aren’t being shaved off and are sitting fine in the case. I’m using Missouri Bullets Cowboy #1 bullets. 250 grain LRNFP.

Would anything other than flaring the case mouth too much cause bullets to spin? After I noticed it I tried crimping them more and it didn’t help so they had plenty of crimp on them.

pete2 · January 2, 2020, 05:30 PM

If you can push the bullet in with out belling the mouth, I suspect the sizing die is not doing it's job. I had the same problem with a couple sizing dies many years ago and had to replace The dies. The bullet should fit tight without any crimp. Before you crimp push the bullet against the bench, it should not move even with high pressure, if it does it isn't tight enough. My problems were with a Lyman .45 Colt die and a Lee .45 ACP die. They just didn't size the case to a small enough size to hole the bullet securely.

ECM4 · January 2, 2020, 05:35 PM

My dies are Hornady custom grade dies. I might have to check into that and measure the cases after I resize to see if they are where they should be. The finished rounds I did without flaring the case mouths went into my revolver fine. Haven’t shot them yet but just loaded up a few without flaring the case mouths and checked to see if they loaded fine.

reddog81 · January 2, 2020, 06:11 PM

What's the diameter of the bullet, expander & resized case? Without knowing those measurements it's just a guess.

LE-28 · January 2, 2020, 06:28 PM

Quote:

What's the diameter of the bullet, expander & resized case? Without knowing those measurements it's just a guess.

I completely agree. What is the dia of the bullet.
You can't check the dia of the neck sizing die because the Hornady neck sizing dies don't come apart like RCBS or Redding dies do.

You should not be able to even start a lead bullet in a case that hasn't be neck sized, let alone seat it without shaving lead.

Die or bullet diameter is off. Lead bullet's dia. should be .452".

Over flaring should not cause the bullet to spin freely in the case from a correctly sized die.

The flare is only the top part of the expansion and the rest of it should be sized to hold a bullet firmly, even it the top looks like a trumpet.

USSR · January 2, 2020, 07:35 PM

Quote:

I sat the bullet into a resized case and it sat in there fine.

If you can seat a bullet in the case without using your expander die, then your resizing die is not doing it's job.

Don

ECM4 · January 2, 2020, 08:06 PM

Here are the measurements. Bullet is .452 like it should be. The resized case mouth inside diameter is .452. The outside is .473. On the outside diameter my manual says it should be .480. I flared the inside of the case mouth to .454 (didn’t take picture of this measurement.)

ECM4 · January 2, 2020, 08:07 PM

This is what the finished round looks like that’s the bullet spins

USSR · January 2, 2020, 08:11 PM

ECM4,

After resizing, your case inside diameter should be several thousands less than .452". The job of your expander die is to bring the inside diameter up to about .450", thereby giving you about .002" of neck tension to hold the bullet in place. I would get yourself another resizing die.

Don

ECM4 · January 2, 2020, 08:16 PM

Thanks for the help. Looks like I will be calling Hornady and hope they send a new one for free. Sucks that a brand new die isn’t working correctly.

USSR · January 2, 2020, 08:24 PM

Good luck with Hornady. I have never been happy with their dies or customer service.

Don

ECM4 · January 2, 2020, 08:28 PM

I just had a die break the other day first time and they sent a new piece immediately. Can’t complain about them yet. They fixed the 1 issue I have had so far. Hoping they do it again. Hornady is all I have ever used and haven’t had a problem ever until the last 2 die sets I bought. The other 4 die sets I use have worked perfectly.

**44 AMP** · January 2, 2020, 09:07 PM

It's not that the sizing die, or the expander "isn't doing its job". Its that they are, but are not the right size for the bullet you are using.

To further complicate things you expanded the inside too much, FOR THE BULLET YOU HAD.

Quote:

Here are the measurements. Bullet is .452 like it should be.

Fine there.

Quote:

The resized case mouth inside diameter is .452.

Not so fine. Can work with light loads but not enough neck tension for heavier recoiling loads

Quote:

The outside is .473. On the outside diameter my manual says it should be .480.

Misunderstanding. .480" is not the diameter it should be. .480" is the max diameter it is allowed to be. Unless the drawing states otherwise, the dimensions given on case drawings are the max allowed amounts. These numbers (all of them) are not what the case has to be, its what the case cannot exceed.

Quote:

I flared the inside of the case mouth to .454 (didn’t take picture of this measurement.)

How much you flare usually isn't an issue what matter is how far down the expansion goes.

Also, under the right conditions, an improper crimp can loosen the grip of the case on the bullet, except where the crimp actually touches.

A bullet that spins in the case is TOO LOOSE. Whether the result of an error or simply a case of stacking tolerances unknown until the round is completed, tis' too loose a fit for good performance.

Before WWII the "standard" bore diameter of the .45 Colt was .454" After WWII, due to the increasing numbers of dual cylinder revolvers shooting .45acp, bore diameters were reduced to the .451/.452 more useful when shooting ACP bullets. The larger .454 lead slugs squeeze down that tiny bit just fine, without issue.

Die sets CAN be found with both size expanders. Have you measured the expander in your set? A .454" expander (and neither size is the bullet diameter they are a couple thousandths smaller, or should be) is oversize for loading .452" bullets.

Call Hornady, explain what's going on, give them the actual measured diameters if asked, and see what they say. My guess is your expander is too big for the bullets used.

USSR · January 3, 2020, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Call Hornady, explain what's going on, give them the actual measured diameters if asked, and see what they say. My guess is your expander is too big for the bullets used.

44 AMP,

ECM4 states that his case inside diameter is .452" after resizing and he can seat bullets without using the expander die, so clearly the problem is with the resizing die "not doing it's job".

Don

pete2 · January 3, 2020, 11:28 AM

I would suggest RCBS dies or Redding. There is no excuse for a sizing die to be oversize-----none. Who knows what else your gonna get from them.

BBarn · January 3, 2020, 12:27 PM

I've noticed variations in 45 Colt die dimensions between Hornady and RCBS (the only two sets I have). Here are some measurements I've made:

Sizer diameters
Hornady 0.470"
RCBS 0.466"

Expanded case inside diameters
via Hornady 0.449"
via RCBS 0.447"

All measured with pin gauges.

I typically use the RCBS sizing die only if I'm loading 0.451" diameter jacketed bullets. Otherwise I use the Hornady sizing die as it seems to size the case enough to achieve a good fit for bullets of 0.452" or greater.

I generally use only the RCBS expander die since I've never found it difficult to seat the bullets even though it's a bit smaller.

Brass thickness (and sometimes brand) comes into play, and sometimes thinner brass doesn't open up much with the RCBS expander after being sized with the Hornady die.

For much of my 45 Colt reloading I've gone to a Lyman M die. It gives the case a stepped expansion of about 0.446" and 0.450" in addition to a bell at the very opening.

As has been said, an excessively large sizer or expander can prevent insufficient bullet tension. Based on my measurements, the inside of a sized and expanded case should be less than 0.450". Since you say your cases measure 0.452", I'd say at least one of the dies is oversize. (I also see you are measuring the inside of the cases with calipers. Due to the thickness of the caliper blades, such a method of measurement will give you a smaller reading than the actual inside diameter, which means the cases are actually a bit larger than 0.452").

Lastly, excessive crimping can cause the case to bell slightly below the crimp and result in reduced bullet tension, perhaps even allowing the bullet to spin.

mikld · January 3, 2020, 02:18 PM

Agree with USSR. Sum Ding Wong regarding resizing the case. Unless there is 1/2" of flare, the normal flare won't have any effect on neck tension...

ECM4 · January 3, 2020, 03:43 PM

I’m about just go with a different brand of dies and just buy something different. I talked to hornady and they wanted me to send different measurements of the inside of the dies and case thickness. With using dial calipers with them being thick on the edges will I even get a accurate measurement on the inside of the dies? Or would I need pin gauges to get exact measurements. My calipers seems to always give me accurate measurements but I know they probably aren’t the best quality just basic dial calipers that came with my lock n load kit.

ECM4 · January 3, 2020, 03:52 PM

This is the measurement I’m getting off my calipers. .472 and I know previous post said their hornady is .470. This probably isn’t the most accurate way of measuring them but thats all I have. Don’t have pin gauges or anything else.

jaguarxk120 · January 3, 2020, 05:18 PM

If the inside of the case is .452 and you can seat .452 bullets by hand then those bullets
are not .452!!

AgedWarrior · January 3, 2020, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECM4

I just had a die break the other day first time and they sent a new piece immediately. Can’t complain about them yet. They fixed the 1 issue I have had so far. Hoping they do it again. Hornady is all I have ever used and haven’t had a problem ever until the last 2 die sets I bought. The other 4 die sets I use have worked perfectly.

So, out of six die sets you have had problems with two? That is a pretty high failure rate if you stop and think about it. 33% of your dies have given you problems. I have yet to have a problem with any RCBS or Redding die sets I have owned (9 RCBS and 8 Redding). Might be worthy of some consideration.

ECM4 · January 3, 2020, 07:26 PM

I shouldn’t of said seat the bullet. I can’t seat it down all the way but it will go in far enough to sit there and not fall out. I did send the information to hornady and they sent me shipping labels to send my die set back for them to check it. Curious to see what they say.

ECM4 · January 3, 2020, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgedWarrior

So, out of six die sets you have had problems with two? That is a pretty high failure rate if you stop and think about it. 33% of your dies have given you problems. I have yet to have a problem with any RCBS or Redding die sets I have owned (9 RCBS and 8 Redding). Might be worthy of some consideration.

Didn’t really think about it like that. Not a good average but they fixed the first one free of charge so I hope they do it again.

BBarn · January 3, 2020, 08:20 PM

Size and expand a few cases. Back the seating/crimp die out a couple turns and seat a bullet without applying a crimp. If you can turn the bullet in the case, either the sizer or expander, or both are oversize. If you can't turn the bullet in the case, you are applying too much crimp.

ECM4 · January 3, 2020, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBarn

Size and expand a few cases. Back the seating/crimp die out a couple turns and seat a bullet without applying a crimp. If you can turn the bullet in the case, either the sizer or expander, or both are oversize. If you can't turn the bullet in the case, you are applying too much crimp.

Just tried this. It still spins. I’m leaning towards the sizing die is too big for some reason.

January 2, 2020, 08:11 PM	#9
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	ECM4, After resizing, your case inside diameter should be several thousands less than .452". The job of your expander die is to bring the inside diameter up to about .450", thereby giving you about .002" of neck tension to hold the bullet in place. I would get yourself another resizing die. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

January 2, 2020, 08:24 PM	#11
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	Good luck with Hornady. I have never been happy with their dies or customer service. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

January 3, 2020, 02:18 PM	#17
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Agree with USSR. Sum Ding Wong regarding resizing the case. Unless there is 1/2" of flare, the normal flare won't have any effect on neck tension... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

January 2, 2020, 05:17 PM	#1
ECM4 Member Join Date: February 18, 2019 Location: West Virginia Posts: 55	.45 LC bullet spin I was running into a problem with bullets spinning after crimp. I figured I flared the mouth too much and I pulled the bullets and re-sized. I sat the bullet into a resized case and it sat in there fine. I reloaded one without flaring the case mouth. And the bullet went in fine with no lead shavings. Has anyone ever just skipped flaring the mouth of the case and go straight to seating and crimping? I don’t really see why I couldn’t since the bullets aren’t being shaved off and are sitting fine in the case. I’m using Missouri Bullets Cowboy #1 bullets. 250 grain LRNFP. Would anything other than flaring the case mouth too much cause bullets to spin? After I noticed it I tried crimping them more and it didn’t help so they had plenty of crimp on them. Last edited by ECM4; January 2, 2020 at 05:26 PM.

January 2, 2020, 05:30 PM	#2
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	If you can push the bullet in with out belling the mouth, I suspect the sizing die is not doing it's job. I had the same problem with a couple sizing dies many years ago and had to replace The dies. The bullet should fit tight without any crimp. Before you crimp push the bullet against the bench, it should not move even with high pressure, if it does it isn't tight enough. My problems were with a Lyman .45 Colt die and a Lee .45 ACP die. They just didn't size the case to a small enough size to hole the bullet securely.

January 2, 2020, 05:35 PM	#3
ECM4 Member Join Date: February 18, 2019 Location: West Virginia Posts: 55	My dies are Hornady custom grade dies. I might have to check into that and measure the cases after I resize to see if they are where they should be. The finished rounds I did without flaring the case mouths went into my revolver fine. Haven’t shot them yet but just loaded up a few without flaring the case mouths and checked to see if they loaded fine.

January 2, 2020, 06:11 PM	#4
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	What's the diameter of the bullet, expander & resized case? Without knowing those measurements it's just a guess.

January 2, 2020, 08:16 PM	#10
ECM4 Member Join Date: February 18, 2019 Location: West Virginia Posts: 55	Thanks for the help. Looks like I will be calling Hornady and hope they send a new one for free. Sucks that a brand new die isn’t working correctly.

January 2, 2020, 08:28 PM	#12
ECM4 Member Join Date: February 18, 2019 Location: West Virginia Posts: 55	I just had a die break the other day first time and they sent a new piece immediately. Can’t complain about them yet. They fixed the 1 issue I have had so far. Hoping they do it again. Hornady is all I have ever used and haven’t had a problem ever until the last 2 die sets I bought. The other 4 die sets I use have worked perfectly.

January 3, 2020, 11:28 AM	#15
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	I would suggest RCBS dies or Redding. There is no excuse for a sizing die to be oversize-----none. Who knows what else your gonna get from them.

January 3, 2020, 12:27 PM	#16
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	I've noticed variations in 45 Colt die dimensions between Hornady and RCBS (the only two sets I have). Here are some measurements I've made: Sizer diameters Hornady 0.470" RCBS 0.466" Expanded case inside diameters via Hornady 0.449" via RCBS 0.447" All measured with pin gauges. I typically use the RCBS sizing die only if I'm loading 0.451" diameter jacketed bullets. Otherwise I use the Hornady sizing die as it seems to size the case enough to achieve a good fit for bullets of 0.452" or greater. I generally use only the RCBS expander die since I've never found it difficult to seat the bullets even though it's a bit smaller. Brass thickness (and sometimes brand) comes into play, and sometimes thinner brass doesn't open up much with the RCBS expander after being sized with the Hornady die. For much of my 45 Colt reloading I've gone to a Lyman M die. It gives the case a stepped expansion of about 0.446" and 0.450" in addition to a bell at the very opening. As has been said, an excessively large sizer or expander can prevent insufficient bullet tension. Based on my measurements, the inside of a sized and expanded case should be less than 0.450". Since you say your cases measure 0.452", I'd say at least one of the dies is oversize. (I also see you are measuring the inside of the cases with calipers. Due to the thickness of the caliper blades, such a method of measurement will give you a smaller reading than the actual inside diameter, which means the cases are actually a bit larger than 0.452"). Lastly, excessive crimping can cause the case to bell slightly below the crimp and result in reduced bullet tension, perhaps even allowing the bullet to spin.

January 3, 2020, 03:43 PM	#18
ECM4 Member Join Date: February 18, 2019 Location: West Virginia Posts: 55	I’m about just go with a different brand of dies and just buy something different. I talked to hornady and they wanted me to send different measurements of the inside of the dies and case thickness. With using dial calipers with them being thick on the edges will I even get a accurate measurement on the inside of the dies? Or would I need pin gauges to get exact measurements. My calipers seems to always give me accurate measurements but I know they probably aren’t the best quality just basic dial calipers that came with my lock n load kit.

January 3, 2020, 05:18 PM	#20
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	If the inside of the case is .452 and you can seat .452 bullets by hand then those bullets are not .452!!

January 3, 2020, 07:26 PM	#22
ECM4 Member Join Date: February 18, 2019 Location: West Virginia Posts: 55	I shouldn’t of said seat the bullet. I can’t seat it down all the way but it will go in far enough to sit there and not fall out. I did send the information to hornady and they sent me shipping labels to send my die set back for them to check it. Curious to see what they say.

January 3, 2020, 08:20 PM	#24
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Size and expand a few cases. Back the seating/crimp die out a couple turns and seat a bullet without applying a crimp. If you can turn the bullet in the case, either the sizer or expander, or both are oversize. If you can't turn the bullet in the case, you are applying too much crimp.