The Guns that Criminals Carry - Know yourself/Know your enemy

[AK103K]

Doesn't anyone here realize what an attorney will cost?

More than your funeral.

So whats your point?


Then theres always something like this.....

http://ccwsafe.com/

[Tactical Jackalope]

And this...

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/

[Dragline45]

Doesn't anyone here realize what an attorney will cost?

Not nearly as much as I value my life, I would rather be in debt than dead.

[Long Path]

Tam puts her classes into Excel to keep a record of them for her resume and probably to track expenses, as she's a professional gun writer, these days.

I don't need to come to her aid; she's smarter than me, and writes better than me. But she also seems to have decided not to play with her food.

Sure, I'll Direct Message you.

[Tactical Jackalope]

DM's are so much nicer.

[samsmix]

The opening post of this thread is about as useful as a poopie flavored lollipop. All it told me is that criminal guns can shoot you. No kidding I don't care if he/she has a Glock or a flintlock, my job is to render him/her incalable of harming me or others with it. I won't waste one half of one second worrying about what kind of handgun it is.

Although I have mostly championed the opposing view, Constantine is right about more power, firepower, and sight radius being a good thing. My choice of duty weapon bears out two of the 3 points, and my next upgrade will cover them all.

That said, I frequently use an LCP sized.380 for off duty CCW. I DO know where to hold at 25 and even 50 yards though. As a frequent revolver packer, I have learned the meaning of DICIPLINED fire, and will do my part. That said, rounds in the gun equals time and distance in a fight, so more is okay. I can also thell you that at 21' your G17 holds no advantage over my .357 mag; he who gets in the first *well placed* hit will likely carry the day.

Tamera is ALSO very correct about the same basic manual of arms and location, although I carry a thigh ride at work and 4 o'clock off duty. I am accustomed to the switch, and all of my guns are draw and shoot sans safety, whether sixgun or auto. I reload them both proficiently. I also shoot my .380 as if it were a full size, just to keep the skills fresh. I am as serious a threat with it as most I've seen with a full size service pistol. I'm the weapon, it's a tool. I have no doubt Tamera is experienced enough to accept SOME flexibility.

There were some hilarious barbs put in by both camps, but if I may suggest, let's haul out the video cameras, targets, and timers, and agree on a course of fire. Tamara, Constantine? What do you say? You guys can cover your respective beliefs, and I will champion the Average Joe view of gunning down when not at work.

If you guys are interested than I will DM you each with a course of fire. Once agreed upon we will open a new thread.

[Tactical Jackalope]

The opening post of this thread is about as useful as a poopie flavored lollipop.

Scared to ask how you know about that flavor.

All it told me is that criminal guns can shoot you. No kidding I don't care if he/she has a Glock or a flintlock, my job is to render him/her incalable of harming me or others with it. I won't waste one half of one second worrying about what kind of handgun it is.

Shows a majority in his area. They have very weird habits. Wrong ammo. Loaded with a few to no bullets. etc..

Tamera is ALSO very correct about the same basic manual of arms and location

I've probably said that 10 times in this thread. I've never disagreed with that. I've also said that I have not disagreed with that 10 times as well.

There were some hilarious barbs put in by both camps, but if I may suggest, let's haul out the video cameras, targets, and timers, and agree on a course of fire. Tamara, Constantine? What do you say? You guys can cover your respective beliefs, and I will champion the Average Joe view of gunning down when not at work.

If you guys are interested than I will DM you each with a course of fire. Once agreed upon we will open a new thread.

They're essentially the same beliefs aside from a little micro gun being adequate. The message got diluted due to unnecessary ways of voicing ones opinion and grew from there.

Also, I've already been given some more infractions because of this thread. Hesitant to respond. I guess I'm really offensive.

[samsmix]

...the taste...

You don't have to try some things to know they aren't good...lol

shows a majority in his area

Doesn't matter. Glock or flintlock, HP, ball, or bird shot, I'm never going to know or care what the other guy brought to the fray until after the fact. It won't influence my decision making process in the least.


This COULD be a useful discussion. Let's be civil and test it out. Tamara, I am neutral as far as sides go. I await your reply in hopes we can hit our respective the ranges and have some fun, while putting differences aside.

[Long Path]

FAST test and El Presidente?

[Greg with a Glock®]

Good article and I appreciate how we, as law-abiding citizens, must prepare for criminal behavior and criminal weaponry.

As a merchant, I come across shop lifters, homeless and mentally unstable customers in my store. I'm extremely cautious when confronting them because I don't know if they have a knife or anything.

But learning mannerisms and appearance are the obvious: tattoos on their necks, fidgeting, talking to themselves, extreme body odor, loose clothing, nervous behavior, etc. My situational awareness is always on red alert.

[senecahornet]

What would be the best type of carry/conseal holster for full size 1911 45 cal. ?

[AK103K]

I always found a good IWB type holster the best. For most of my life, I carried mine at around 4-4:30. These past couple of years, I find AIWB to work the best, and wished Id tried it sooner. It is by far, the most concealable, and quickest draw.

Its also more secure, more easily protected, and least apt to be found with an inadvertent/innocent bump, or an intentional bump frisk, or be given away, if you lean over the wrong way.

[A pause for the COZ]

I have a IWB holster for my 1911. Have to be careful with it though.
I am a Finn so, I have no butt to speak of and a big gut.
Pants and gun can easily end up at the ankles.

Not a pretty sight. Its happened more N once.
So a set of Perry Suspenders have become part of the kit.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Perry suspenders are a wonderful addition to the tactical belly kit. They serve to keep my Glock and extra mag in place.

But we are wandering off course in the thread.

[2damnold4this]

Interesting thread topic. It seems that many of the criminals had firearms that weren't fully functional or completely broken but some had top notch guns that were loaded with premium ammo. I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw on the possible firearms a citizen or police officer might face.

[gyvel]

You can't overlook the fact that police have to go into areas that we normally stay away from.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by gyvel:

You can't overlook the fact that police have to go into areas that we normally stay away from.

How would that enter into the equation?

It would influence the probability that a defender would have the need to use force, including deadly force, but once the incident occurs, the area would have nothing to do with the question of what the defender would be faced with.

[samsmix]

Old marksman,
The difference is that a LEO, knowing he must enter into such places, can draw his weapon and be ready. The discerning CCW holder won't put his/her self into those situations if at all possible.
The LEO intentionally walks into harms way, while the CCW holder has trouble thrust upon him suddenly...mostly.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by samsmix:

The difference is that a LEO, knowing he must enter into such places, can draw his weapon and be ready.

It is true that the LEO may be able to lawfully draw in circumstances in which a civilian defender would not.

The discerning CCW holder won't put his/her self into those situations if at all possible.

True. But once the need for shooting arises, there is little difference....

...except in one aspect.

If the person with whom a civilian defender has tangled takes off down the road, it is over.

However, the LEO would have an obligation to try to pursue and apprehend.

What that means to me is that the LEO would have the need to reload in more instances than the civilian defender, and a realistic opportunity to do so.

[The Big D]

Having read the OP, it's sort of interesting but seems to contain no actionable information. Yes, criminals frequently have non-functional guns. You can get an advantage by having one that works, is tested, has good HP ammo, etc. But you were going to do all that anyways, so there's nothing actionable there.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I don't know why it's gone to 6 pages!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Look in the mirror

[Tactical Jackalope]

I feel, so, special.

[boltomatic]

The reality is, a gun is a gun is a gun in civilian self defense. I've looked at a lot of statistics and research and the fact is MOST self defense situations where a gun is involved don't even involve any shots being fired and when shots re fired its rare that more than 2 or 3 are fired.

The fact is, the chances of a smaller bullet or magazine failing where a larger round or magazine would have saved your life are so small its almost not worth considering.

That said, carry whatever you want. Its a personal decision. But if you are concerned that you don't have enough "firepower" or "stopping power" I suggest you do some research on actual CIVILIAN self defense scenarios.

Also, remember that he who draws first wins. If you are accosted by a criminal at gun point you have a much better chance of survival by giving him your wallet or whatever he wants. Chances are he can pull the trigger faster than you can draw, aim, and fire. If he doesn't have a gun and you do, you have the upper hand no matter what and the odds of a smaller bullet failing you where a larger round would have worked are again very, very small.

This is what I learned from doing actual research, i.e. not anecdotal reports and unsupported arguments from keyboard commandos. Ive found police officers and soldiers are the biggest culprits of the stopping power myth because for them, more firepower actually does matter in many scenarios but for civilians the statistics on self defense scenarios show that 99% of the time a would be victim brandishes a .22 and the criminal runs the hell away. When shots are fired, its only a few shots. We all hear about that one time a criminal took 6 or 7 hits from a 9mm and proceeded to kill his victim, but that is extremely rare and he probably would have taken 3 or 4 hits from a .45 as well.

In conclusion, carry what you want to carry. The most important thing is that the gun fires when you pull the trigger and the bullets hit where you want them to hit. Its very unlikely that a failed attempt at self defense would have been successful if you had a larger round in the same situation and I base that conclusion off real life evidence, not what if arguments, conjecture, or emotion. I'm just a boring researcher who loves guns and lives in one of the top 50 most violent city districts in the country.

[Sport45]

Originally Posted by Constantine

Just that in my mind, if you're already carrying a gun for self defense to begin with.. why not actually carry one adequate enough to cover all bases?

And what fairy tale handgun would that be? I can't imagine one that would cover all the imaginable scenarios one could come up with. (Unless it's one of those movie guns that will fire forever without the need to reload.) Everyone has a minimum amount of firepower they are comfortable with. My minimum is less than yours and yours seems to be more than most.