The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 16, 2021, 08:43 AM   #51
jdc606
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2015
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
houndddawg--what is "BTO"--is that a measure of the cartridge's base to ogive? Do competitive shooters pull bullets and set them themselves?
The .22lr headspaces off the chamber side of the cartridge rim. Here was my progress down the rabbit hole of amateur .22lr accuracy. I would first sort ammo by weight to .1 grain spread, sort rim thickness with Hornady rim thickness gauge, form ogive to same length using Hornady ogive tool. It's easy to uniform the ogive (drive band) of the soft lead bullets by spinnning with light pressure, see attachment. I do believe competitive shooters send their barreled actions to Eley or Lapua test centers and have various lots of ammo shot through them to find the best lot. I've had 3 cpr .22lr out perform 25 cpr ammo. It's all fun.

Last edited by jdc606; August 31, 2021 at 05:08 PM.
jdc606 is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 12:01 PM   #52
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
thanks.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 12:22 PM   #53
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,651
The smallest 5-shot group of my targets is about .350 inch.

Last edited by Bart B.; June 16, 2021 at 12:31 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 12:27 PM   #54
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
Quote:
houndddawg--what is "BTO"--is that a measure of the cartridge's base to ogive? Do competitive shooters pull bullets and set them themselves?
yes and not that I know of. Although if I could find a shellholder a seating die I would try

@jdc yes you are right about the headspacing but the headspace is not what I am looking at. I can tell you from the BTO whether a particular ammo will shoot in my 452's or my Kidd without ever firing a shot. I found no difference when sorting by weight or by rim thickness.

What I did find was the length of base to ogive on ammos that shot well were all within a certain length measuring from base to ogive. I tested 15 types of ammo and found that without exception my Kidd prefers one length and my CZ almost the same length but will tolerate the shorter ammo better. My buddy has a CZ 455 with a MDT barrel and chassis that loves the high dollar ELEY and Federal Ultra Match but when tested in both of my 452's and my Kid they were mediocre at best

For whatever reason the low dollar CCI Std Velocity seems to shoot well in everything. I am going to try to get to the range tomorrow with my CZ's and about 20 of these targets
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 12:42 PM   #55
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
as long as we are posting bragging pics here is where I was doing the initial testing on that Kidd. The upper left group was the first group shot after changing ammo, lower right was rounds 16 - 20. Notice how the groups shrank as the lube from the previous ammo was pushed out and the Lapua Midas lube took it's place. I had my shooting partner sign and date this one because I could not believe that last group myself when I brought it back to the bench

.133 inches at 50 yards

.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lapua Midas +.jpg (114.1 KB, 25 views)
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; June 16, 2021 at 01:02 PM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 01:09 PM   #56
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
Amazing! Unfortunately have zilch experience with 22lr so I wouldn't know one ammo from another! BTW--what's the consensus on shooting lead ammo through a new barrel? In other words should you dedicate a barrel to "one or the other" due to cleaning issues--lead ammo seems to be the only one readily available.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 02:48 PM   #57
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
I have a CZ457 on the way--should have it by next week some time (assuming it doesn't get lost in space).
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 03:03 PM   #58
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
Quote:
Amazing! Unfortunately have zilch experience with 22lr so I wouldn't know one ammo from another! BTW--what's the consensus on shooting lead ammo through a new barrel?
here is a thread on another forum you may enjoy, 1st post has links to about every rimfire ammo known to man

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343

as far as the lead vs plated I have never paid any attention, some of the ammos I shoot are plated other not

Quote:
I have a CZ457 on the way--should have it by next week some time (assuming it doesn't get lost in space).
grats I give my CZ's full credit for improving my long range shooting. I went through 10K of ammo one spring/summer/fall at 100 and 200. When I went back to CF the next year my long range scores improved by 5 to 8 points per target

here is another link where you can learn everything you want to know about that 457


https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...splay.php?f=18


BTW that .1 group was a one off, never been able to duplicate it. 4's and 5's are pretty common with that rifle though

this is some good stuff, both my CZ's love it

Midsouth - https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...nd-box?Tk=DFAM

also CCI Std Vel https://www.cci-ammunition.com/rimfire/
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; June 16, 2021 at 03:16 PM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 04:20 PM   #59
jdc606
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2015
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
here is a thread on another forum you may enjoy, 1st post has links to about every rimfire ammo known to man

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343
Hello Houndawg,
You have provided a link to what I think is the definitive testing of .22lr ammo. 50 rounds at 200 yards through a chronograph. Don't get much better, facts-wise.
I shoot most often at 100yds with my el-cheapo Savage MkII. Has an older Japan Tasco 36x scope and I've tinkered with the trigger some. Biggest improvement was going to a blem Rigid Alloy chassis on sale, didn't want to spend more on a stock than the whole rifle, see attachment. Have frequently put 10 shots into one of those 1" stickers at 100 yrds. All luck of the draw. When I get 9 shots in the sticker and 1 shot drops 1+ inches low I know it ain't me.
I used to get consistantly good results with Federal 22/40 bulk boxes or their Automatch stuff. Last ammo that impressed me is some Eley Action at 6 cpr. Some of my early best shooting was with Aguila at $1.79 per box of 50.

Hopefully sighters are allowed in this competition. Air temp/density will make a big difference in POI when shooting .22lr.

Last edited by jdc606; August 31, 2021 at 05:08 PM.
jdc606 is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 04:58 PM   #60
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
That is a bunch of great info guys--thanks so much! BTW--anyone tried loading their own? It looks like cutting edge has some really good bullets as well as dies. And a very funny video to go with it.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 05:06 PM   #61
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
@ Jdc - getting consistent 1 inch groups at 100 yards at 100 yards is a very hard thing to do even with high end 22's. When our club was holding rimfire benchrest contests some of the competitors who were using high end custom rifles and Eley Tenex were happy with a 1 inch group.

I like to shoot at 100 for wind practice with my rimfire rifles and if I get consistent 1.5 to 2 inch groups I walk away happy. If I want to just have fun, 25 and 50 yards is where the humble .22 LR shines. Shooting @ 200 yards is just nuts and a 4 - 6 inch vertical spread is my usual

edit @ stapanther, thanks for that link. Now if I can just come up with some way to gently pull the bullets on the stock ammo just a tad for reseating.

- Oh Boy!!! Another rabbithole
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; June 16, 2021 at 05:12 PM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 05:39 PM   #62
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
Quote:
- Oh Boy!!! Another rabbithole
Allow me to assist in pushing you down that rabbit hole--I found a source at FedArm that has primed brass ready to load!
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 07:18 PM   #63
jdc606
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2015
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
@ Jdc - getting consistent 1 inch groups at 100 yards is a very hard thing to do even with high end 22's.
I only shoot 100 yd .22lr on calm days above 50°. Small groups at 100 aren't too difficult under those conditions but actually hitting POA, first couple rounds, is a challenge for me. Got no wind flags or experience and change in atmosphere or ammo will move POI from where I was dialed in last time out.
Shoot black flies at 50yds. Don't approve of killing things just for sport but feel like I'm getting even for their wicked-nasty biting.
jdc606 is offline  
Old June 16, 2021, 08:01 PM   #64
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
4 of these https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-48-...ve-Rod/3025196

plus 1 roll of this

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Presco-1-in...-Tape/50146384

less than 20 bucks you can make four flags

works better than any 50 dollar wind flag sold over at bench rest centrel
edit those fancy daisy wheels the BR guys like really do suck, they have a lag when the wind starts and inertia keeps them turning for a few seconds when the wind stops. This tape moves as soon as the wind picks up and drops instantly when it stops
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 08:53 AM   #65
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3,324
Nice work stagpanther. Taking this little guy to the range to give it a go today.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 10:19 AM   #66
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,651
I'm convinced firearm and ammo accuracy is best defined by the largest groups fired. They show what happens when all the variables add up.

Smallest groups happen when the variables cancel each other out.

Some of those variables are in what holds the firearm.
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 12:40 PM   #67
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,651
If you want to see how much spread 22 rimfire cartridge component's weights effect cartridge weight, after weighing each round, take each cartridge apart and weigh its 3 components; primed case, powder and bullet.

Then decide if sorting rounds by weight is worthwhile.
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 01:00 PM   #68
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 852
Quote:
All day yesterday on a 100 degree day she would get close and I thought ok a nice kiss or whisper sweet nothings and she would whisper -- "You SUCK" or "You need to get it together"
Catching up on this thread. This cracked me up.

I'm jealous your wife shoots with you.
ghbucky is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 01:21 PM   #69
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
Another great day, this time with the CZ 452, tried some SK Std, SK Rifle Match , the went to some high dollar Fiocchi Exacta Winter and hit paydirt. Shots 16 and 19 looked iffy but the scoring plug shows they nicked the black for a clean sweep of the center row for a score of 90

rifle is a plain jane completely stock cz 452 trainer, Sightron 4 - 12 scope, no name bipod
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cz 452.jpg (226.2 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-06-17-90.jpg (84.5 KB, 18 views)
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 06:42 PM   #70
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Rural PA
Posts: 1,628
I gave it a try today. I sucked. I'm gonna try again another day with my bolt rifle.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp
GarandTd is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 09:06 PM   #71
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
Quote:
rifle is a plain jane completely stock cz 452 trainer, Sightron 4 - 12 scope, no name bipod
If you cleaned the second row with a 4-12 optic I'd call that pretty darn good shooting.
Quote:
Nice work stagpanther. Taking this little guy to the range to give it a go today
That's one exotic lookin rifle ya got there!
Quote:
I'm gonna try again another day with my bolt rifle.
What were you shooting?

Can't believe I just bought some 22lr ammo that costs about as much as the last time I bought 9mm.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; June 17, 2021 at 09:22 PM.
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 17, 2021, 09:52 PM   #72
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
Quote:
If you cleaned the second row with a 4-12 optic I'd call that pretty darn good shooting.
That rifle has been a shooter since day 1 but it can be finicky from day to day as to what ammo it shines with. It took 3 tries with different ammos before I found the right combo today. But that same rifle got me in the 250 club over at rimfire central and after I shot this target I shot a 217 on the green monster for the 50 yard sporter class contest

Quote:
Can't believe I just bought some 22lr ammo that costs about as much as the last time I bought 9mm.
Now that you have gotten the rimfire bug you will find yourself collecting a lot of various flavors of ammo. Like I said in earlier post my CZ's like about all of the SK stuff, Fiocchi Exacta, Lapua Midas +, Wolf, and CCI Std Vel. Different days they will favor one or the other.

By the way which CZ did you order ? They all shoot good but I have been wanting one of those MTRs for a while now. Butt ugly stocks but darn they shoot

Also get yourself a scoring plug, the way the bullet makes a hole it will be slightly smaller than the actual bullet. The bullet tears the paper as it passes through or something. I have scored literally thousands of targets in various local and state competitions and a scoring plug is a must have if you want to track your own improvement

I am pretty sure that would have scored as a hit on that 30 pointer in Revolver Guy's video.

ten bucks on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283224996913
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 18, 2021, 05:08 AM   #73
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,109
I couldn't find any "good stuff" you mentioned anywhere, so I bought some on an impulse from the same outfit I bought the CZ 457 jaguar from. 4 boxes of "average stuff" of around 1,200 cartridges cost a painful $350.00.
I selected the Jaguar for the long site radius for shooting with irons--my old eyes can actually do OK with irons once that gets to 28". Another reason I ordered the CZ was I noticed that Lilja makes after-market match grade prefits for them. I get most of my fun in shooting from putting rifles together and developing my own ammo for them--I may seriously look into handloading the 22lr--even with custom components it's probably competitive with the prices of factory stuff.

I'm going to add to my oldfartdom hobby time and try diving into the world of making my own stocks--most of the ones I buy ready-made I end up having to do a lot of work on anyway.

It's really Mr Revolverguy that got me interested in 22's--I love watching his videos and he seems to have the most fun shooting 22lr's.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; June 18, 2021 at 05:27 AM.
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 18, 2021, 08:57 AM   #74
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 3,865
Quote:
I selected the Jaguar for the long site radius for shooting with irons--my old eyes can actually do OK with irons once that gets to 28".
CZ makes a pretty rifle, that is a nice one



Quote:
Another reason I ordered the CZ was I noticed that Lilja makes after-market match grade prefits for them.
my 452's can't be swapped, one reason I have been thinking about a 457. Luckily my 452's had good barrels from the factory. I was embarrassing a buddy who was shooting a couple of benches down with his Anshutz 1710 yesterday. He wanted to know if I was interested in selling the CZ. I offered to trade him straight up, he declined
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 18, 2021, 01:25 PM   #75
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Rural PA
Posts: 1,628
I was shooting my dedicated 22 build. It could have just been a bad day. I earned my Rifleman's patch with it. I know I can do better than I did yesterday.

The bolt rifle is a Marlin with a 3-9x on it. The AR only has a fixed 4 power. Neither are "premium" or even mid level scopes. I have to shoot within my means.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp
GarandTd is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09936 seconds with 9 queries