Battle Zero sight vs. 100m sight at 25, 50, 100 yds

[rjinga]

The rifle: Chinese Type 56 SKS (with bayonet extended, of course). The ammunition: Golden Tiger, 124 grain, FMJ BT. Regular iron sights; no scope or optic.

All of the targets, unless noted, were shot off of a bench-rest (crude, but effective):


On the first set of targets, I was using a 6:00 POA, and I tried to touch the top of the front post to the barrel on the target:

The distance between the center points of the two groups was approximately 2”, and both were below the POA.

On the second set of targets, I used a 6:00 POA and I tried to touch the top of the front post to the bottom of the 3” red square:

The center point of the BZ rear sight group was about 2-1/2” above the center point of the 100m rear sight group.

On the third set of targets, I used a 6:00 POA and I tried to touch the top of the front post to the bottom of the paper:

I fired five rounds using the 100m rear sights and none of the rounds hit the paper (low, I’m assuming). So, I switched to a center/just below center POA and got three out of four shots on the paper. I went back to the 6:00 POA with the BZ rear sight and got four out of five shots on the paper about 7” above the POA.

I switched to a shooting-with-my-elbows-on-the-bench (unsupported?) position with the “bad guy” target:

The POA with the 100m rear sight was a 6:00 hold on the center/upper center of the target. I fired six rounds. The POA with the BZ rear sight was a 6:00 hold on the center of the target. I fired 10 rounds. The distance between the center points of the two groups was approximately 8”.

On the last target I went back to the bench-rest and a 6:00 POA, with the top of the post touching the bottom of the target:

Ten rounds fired; nine on the paper and eight on the target.

Conclusion: One of these days I hope to be able to try the rear-sight meter positions at confirmed metric distances. In the meantime, I think I’ll work on getting proficient with both the BZ rear sight (out to 300 yds) and the meter notches at the corresponding yardage distances.

[DMK]

How are you zeroing your SKS?

On the "bad guy" target, you say you held "6:00 hold on the center/upper center of the target". Do you mean the bad guys throat?


This is an interesting test. I never liked the BZ with 7.62x39 on the AK and SKS. I keep mine at 200m for a BZ and that works a lot better for me(somewhere around 3" high at 100y).

[rjinga]

Originally Posted by DMK

How are you zeroing your SKS?

On the "bad guy" target, you say you held "6:00 hold on the center/upper center of the target". Do you mean the bad guys throat?

No, not that high. The top of the front post would be touching the chest.

Originally Posted by DMK

This is an interesting test. I never liked the BZ with 7.62x39 on the AK and SKS. I keep mine at 200m for a BZ and that works a lot better for me(somewhere around 3" high at 100y).

I may try that!

[ThomasT]

100 meters is 328 feet. So 28 feet past 100 yards. I doubt that makes much difference in the grand scheme of things.

I would set up with a good rest at 100 yards and the rear sight on the 100 meter setting. Then adjust your front post so that your groups are right on top of the post. That should get you close enough that if you shoot at 200 yards just raise the rear site to the 200 meter setting and check where the bullets are hitting. Then again at 300 with the the 300 meter setting on the rear leaf.

And remember your gun will most likely change POI quite a bit with the bayonet extended and even just on the gun. I removed the bayonets off both my SKS rifles. I figure if someone is close enough to stick them with it I have already screwed up letting them ever get that close.

Do you have the tool to adjust your front sight? I hate to admit it but I bought one from Cheaper Than Dirt. And its not a great tool. The metal is soft and when I tried to move the front drum to the right a little it spread open. But the drum was so tight I had to bang it out with a hammer and punch and file a little off the drum so it could be adjusted. Works fine now. The tool also has a part that will lower and raise the front post so you can tweak the elevation if needed.

Good tool

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/51...k-47-sks-steel

Not so good tool but a much better price.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/36...tool-ak-47-sks

[rjinga]

Originally Posted by ratshooter

Do you have the tool to adjust your front sight?

No, not yet anyway. It may go on my X-mas list.

[ThomasT]

Trust me. You need one. Check Ebay.

I have the cheap one and after I fitted the sightdrums on my rifles it works fine. I actually dug around until I found Mine. It was right where I left it. I just didn’t remember where I had left it.

[DMK]

It looks to me like the shots are pretty centered windage wise.

You can use a needle nose pliers to adjust elevation (grab the flat, not the sight post).

[DMK]

Originally Posted by ratshooter

100 meters is 328 feet. So 28 feet past 100 yards. I doubt that makes much difference in the grand scheme of things.

According to my ballistic calculator (yeah I know, a lot of un-accounted for variables) with a 100 meter zero, it should be printing shots .20" high (so lets call that 1/4" high) at 100 yards. With typical SKS accuracy. That's negligible. I put my group just a hair higher than POA at 100y and call it good

Originally Posted by rjinga

No, not that high. The top of the front post would be touching the chest.

It seems you are printing considerably high with that 100m zero at 100y. Probably about 4" high.

That will also throw your BZ high by a considerable margin. However, the distance between the two groups will of course remain the same.

If you were aiming at the center of the chest (and maybe I'm misunderstanding your POA - I'm not sure how you would do a 6 o'clock hold on the center of the chest), then properly zero'd, your BZ shots should have impacted around the neck instead of the head.

[ThomasT]

It looks to me like the shots are pretty centered windage wise.

They look good at the closer ranges but when he is at 300 and 400 yards it looks like he is landing a little to the right. I guess it could be bullet progression, I think thats what its called when the bullet curves a bit from the bullet spin.

Just noticed his long range shots are in his other thread. You may want to have a look at them.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=590744

[Rangerrich99]

Not an expert, so I can't offer any advice; just wanted to say "nice shooting." I doubt I could shoot as well with that weapon, using iron sights. Really good shooting.

[rjinga]

Originally Posted by Rangerrich99

Not an expert, so I can't offer any advice; just wanted to say "nice shooting." I doubt I could shoot as well with that weapon, using iron sights. Really good shooting.

Thanks!

[tangolima]

My sks has a sliding leaf sight (tangent sight?). Don't know what a battle zero is. With the slide all the way back? Isn't that 100m?

Anyway, whatever it is, your battle zero looks like 5" high than 100m zero at 100 yards. The 100m zero has poi about 1" higher than poa, so it is correct. Your "battle zero" seems at 250 yards or 200m ish.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[rjinga]

Originally Posted by tangolima

My sks has a sliding leaf sight (tangent sight?). Don't know what a battle zero is. With the slide all the way back?

Yes, with the slide all the way back. I may be using the wrong/incorrect term.

Originally Posted by tangolima

Isn't that 100m?

I originally thought it was 300m, but it may be 200m.

[tangolima]

Now I see. There is a ledge behind the 100m notch. Didn't notice it before. Thanks.

Looks like it is somewhere between 200m and 300m, probably 225m. Makes sense looking at your groups.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[DMK]

They look good at the closer ranges but when he is at 300 and 400 yards it looks like he is landing a little to the right. I guess it could be bullet progression, I think thats what its called when the bullet curves a bit from the bullet spin.

Just noticed his long range shots are in his other thread. You may want to have a look at them.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=590744

That other range session was interesting because at 200y the shots were falling just to the left and at 300y they were falling just to the right. Could have been wind, but it appeared consistent over the whole string of shots. Maybe some lateral play in the rear sight. It's pretty minimal for the ranges we are talking about.

I don't think I'd touch windage unless it proved to be consistently printing shots to the same side. It's hard to make precision windage adjustments to SKS and AK sights. They are pressed in tight and tend to stay in position, then pop and jump over more than you wanted.

If it was me I'd still bring that front sight post down just a bit for a higher POI. You had to aim at the bottom of the target to get center of mass hits at 200y. Now, some folks might like it that way, but I prefer POI to be at POA or as close as possible (and I believe that was the way the SKS was intended to be zero'd).

That was nice shooting at those longer ranges rjinga! I'd love to see you shooting a Swiss K31 at that range.

[rjinga]

Originally Posted by DMK

If it was me I'd still bring that front sight post down just a bit for a higher POI.

Well, I wonder how much the difference between meters and yards is affecting the POA vs POI? Using 100m sight at 100 yds = 9 yd differential. 200m sight at 200 yds = 18 (almost 19) yd differential. 300m at 300 yds = 28 yd differential. And, 400m sight at 400 yds = 37 yd differential.

I think I'm going to practice using the battle sight zero position, and see if I can find one POA that will keep me in the shaded area from 25 yds out to 300 (maybe 400) yds:

Originally Posted by DMK

That was nice shooting at those longer ranges rjinga! I'd love to see you shooting a Swiss K31 at that range.

And I'd love to shoot a Swiss K31! You don't have one you can loan me, do you?

[ThomasT]

I don't think I'd touch windage unless it proved to be consistently printing shots to the same side. It's hard to make precision windage adjustments to SKS and AK sights. They are pressed in tight and tend to stay in position, then pop and jump over more than you wanted.

You may be right in your thinking. I looked at my SKS and they have a slot in the front of the front sight. If that slot wasn't there it could be drilled and tapped and a set screw installed. After making the front sight drum a little looser then you could loosen the set screw and easily move the front sight by hand. But its not to be. I had to hammer mine out and file the outside just a little so they would move with the sight tool. Thats good enough for me.

I think I'm going to practice using the battle sight zero position, and see if I can find one POA that will keep me in the shaded area from 25 yds out to 300 (maybe 400) yds:

You might be able to do that with a flatter shooting round but with that cartridge I think the farthest you might be able to do that is around 300 yards(meters). After that its raise the rear sight or aim higher.

I like the idea of being on target at whatever range I am shooting at. With the easily raised rear sight I would zero at 100 and check and see where they land at the 200,300 and 400 meter setting with the bullet set to hit right top of the front post at 100 yards.

I guess thats a carry over from the handgun shooting I used to do. I had Ruger standard model 22 that someone had filed the front sight so when you held at the bottom of a 6" bullseye at 25 yards it would hit center. Good for target shooting but not so good for hunting.

I had a rabbit in my sights at about 20 yards. I held just below his eye for a head shot. When I fired the rabbit didn't move. But I had a bullet hole through both ears half way up! I don't know why the rabbit didn't run. Surely that hurt. But anyway I held BELOW his head and the next shot was a dead center head shot.

When I got home I removed the front sight blade and used it to trace out a new sight with a taller blade. Then I went to the range and filed it down till it hit right on top of the blade. To shoot a bean can in the center you held just a fraction below center and you would get a center hit. All my open sighted guns are sighted in like that now. No more holding low or wondering exactly where my bullet is going to hit.

The way you are talking about sighting your gun is good for shooting a man standing up where a hit in the torso is all you are after but not so good for target shooting.

[ThomasT]

I hope this copies correctly. Here is a chart with your gun zeroed at 200 yards you are nearly 4" high at 100 yards. You are 15" low at 300 and 47" low at 400. Its even worse if you go with meters. So one sight settings doesn't look like its really workable. At least not for me.

There is a link to the chart and you can play with the values to get different results.


Range Elevation Elevation Elevation Windage Windage Windage Time Energy Vel[x+y]
(yd) (in) (MOA) (MIL) (in) (MOA) (MIL) (s) (ft.lbf) (ft/s)
0 -1.45 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 1432 2300
25 0.55 -2.08 -0.60 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.03 1334 2220
50 2.09 -3.98 -1.16 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.07 1242 2142
75 3.16 -4.01 -1.17 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.10 1154 2065
100 3.71 -3.54 -1.03 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.14 1072 1990
125 3.72 -2.84 -0.83 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.18 995 1917
150 3.14 -2.00 -0.58 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.22 922 1845
175 1.92 -1.05 -0.30 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.26 853 1776
200 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.30 790 1708
225 -2.65 1.12 0.33 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.35 730 1642
250 -6.11 2.33 0.68 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.39 675 1579
275 -10.45 3.63 1.05 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.44 623 1518
300 -15.72 5.00 1.46 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.49 576 1459
325 -22.02 6.47 1.88 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.55 533 1403
350 -29.43 8.03 2.33 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.60 493 1349
375 -38.03 9.68 2.82 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.66 457 1299
400 -47.92 11.44 3.33 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.72 424 1252
425 -59.19 13.30 3.87 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.78 396 1209
450 -71.95 15.26 4.44 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.84 370 1169
475 -86.30 17.35 5.05 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.91 348 1133
- Sound Barrier (1116 fps) -
500 -102.34 19.54 5.68 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.97 328 1101
shooting chronograph

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ba...php?t=d211423d

[DMK]

Well, I wonder how much the difference between meters and yards is affecting the POA vs POI?

Good point. I forgot about that.

And I'd love to shoot a Swiss K31! You don't have one you can loan me, do you?

I live in the mountains of Western NC right above you and would gladly meet up at a range and let you shoot mine.

[rjinga]

Here are my Golden Tiger ammo targets at 25m and 100m:



It's kind of hard to see, but there is a yellow + inside of each rectangle that marks the center point of the shot group.

At 25m, I tried to touch the top of the front post to the bottom of the 2" red square. The center point of the shot group was 0.997" above the bottom of the square.

At 100m, the top of the front post was in the position as shown in the photo (as best as I can recall). The center point of that shot group was 3.812" above the top of the post (ignore the windage for now).

So, approximately how much would I need to move my front post up (counter-clockwise) to lower my POI at 100m by two or three inches?

[DMK]

So, approximately how much would I need to move my front post up (counter-clockwise) to lower my POI at 100m by two or three inches?

That's a good question. I always take a WAG and turn a little, shoot a little, trial and error wise until I get it where I want it.

However, there is a calculation you can do if you know the sight radius, distance to target, and amount or error.

Amount of Error * Sight Radius / Distance to Target = Sight Correction Needed (All parameters measured in inches)

You've got two of the needed parameters, just measure your sight radius and enter them in the calculator tool here:
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/learn...aspx?lid=13093