Wilson 870 - Is it worth $1000 - Page 2

BigJimP · July 16, 2012, 11:27 AM

Yes, I think most anything Wilson Combat touches ...makes it a better gun that it was to start with.

I have a few of their 1911's ...and if I wanted a tactical pump gun / I'd go with a Wilson Combat upgraded 870. If I wanted a semi-auto tactical shotgun - I'd go with the Benelli M-4.

Lee Lapin · July 16, 2012, 01:35 PM

It's not worth it to me, $1000 will buy four or five of the 870s I prefer - which are older Express guns. 870s are so modular it's easy to set them up pretty much however you want with relatively few skills/tools.

But if it's worth it to YOU - go for it.

jmorris · July 16, 2012, 01:36 PM

I've shot them before, actually placed first over all at the 2009 IDPA nationals shotgun side match with one. Nice but not $1000 nice, better stuff out there for that amount of money.

NYCShooter · July 16, 2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

First of all, I wasn't saying you get a better extractor or ejector in a higher end 870 like the Police, which is a Remington marketing gimmick, you get a forged set of those parts in the Wingmaster.

The ejector is the same, as I said. The extractor on the Wingmaster and Police is forged. As I said, I always replace the MIM extractor on an 870, even though I have never seen one fail. I do not consider this a marketing gimmick.

Quote:

Rather than "virtually being the same gun," the real reason to use the Express, is the maximization of profit. It's rougher, already has a fit and finish level easy to improve upon, and it was built to a low price point.

Other than a few, easily replaceable parts, the level of finish (internally and externally) on the Wingmaster (and, to a lesser extent, the Police) is the difference between the guns. Remington marketing is the reason that they have been able to create a large price differential between the Express and the Wingmaster and Police, which are all virtually the same gun.

Quote:

What I was saying is that instead of upgrading the cheap parts, which would be their standard approach on a 1911, Wilson's shotgun approach largely consists of slapping on aftermarket parts and slipping in one improved magazine spring, coating the rougher Express and shipping it out with an extreme markup.

As I have said, the two parts that Wilson does not upgrade, the extractor and carrier dog follower spring, can be replaced for $19 (if one chooses to do so). What Wilson adds to the gun, in addition to the third-party accessories, is a level of finish, worked-over action, and a coating that is second to none. Wilson does not simply "coat a rough Express and ship it out". In the case of the OP, I think that the gun, plus the cost of the added components, plus the work that Wilson does to the gun is worth $850. As usual YMMV.

Gats Italian · July 16, 2012, 04:35 PM

I agree it's worth $850 the debate here, as it were, is it worth the MSRP, the "normal" street price, or even a grand. The consensus seems to be that it is not. Please note that the OP has not been offered to buy the specimen at $850.00, but at $1k.

Gats Italian · July 16, 2012, 05:11 PM

Whoops. Double tapped.

Dave McC · July 17, 2012, 01:48 PM

Gotta admit this thread leaves me a little puzzled.

I've put at least 50K shells through my various 870s and oodles more through agency weapons. Total new parts, 2 firing pin springs, both in one 870TB, a well used and cherished trap gun.

I see people here talk about replacing MIM parts with forged ones, but I DO NOT SEE THEM SAYING THE OLD ONES FAILED.

What's the truth? Are you replacing perfectly good parts on a suppostion?

jmortimer · July 17, 2012, 03:11 PM

^ Generally, I would agree, but when your life is on the line a couple inexpensive parts will increase reliability - i.e. the "Police" grade. A few extra dollars is well worth it - which is why I would only buy an 870 from AIP tactical, for less $$$ than a "P" grade 870. Here is explaintation from their web site:

"All AI&P Tactical shotguns are built on the Remington 870. I will not build on anything else as I am a Remington Factory Certified Law Enforcement Armorer, certified on the 870 Police and 11-87-Police and will not build nor even work on other weapons as I am not certified on them. Except for the models built on the Police receivers all AI&P Tactical Shotguns are the same. All are built on new Remington 870 magnum receivers. We bead blast them and parkerize them. We upgrade the trigger groups and bolt. the bolt on the Express model and the blot on the P model are the exact same bolt, same matte finish and all the same parts except for the extractor. I change the extractor to the solid steel one that comes on the P model and thus a P model bolt. The trigger groups are on a polymer housing or you can upgrade to cast but all have the same internal parts. I have found the polymer to be completely durable and stays cleaner internally. I have the polymer housing on all of my weapons as do all my employees."

jmortimer · July 17, 2012, 03:32 PM

Deleted

NYCShooter · July 17, 2012, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scattergun Bob
Here you go. This is a list to upgrade express 870's, please read it carefully.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post...

Creeper · July 17, 2012, 05:14 PM

Hey "kennethlee"... havin' fun yet, or did you already unsubscribe?

Cheers,
C

TheNatureBoy · July 17, 2012, 05:27 PM

For me, absolutely not! For you ???????? Your money, your decision.

Dave McC · July 18, 2012, 01:56 PM

J, how do you improve reliability on something that has never broken?

jmortimer · July 18, 2012, 02:52 PM

Really not much to "argue" about. An 870 Express will work for a long time as you know based on your extensive experience. The up-grade parts can be had for around $50.00 and per AIP, wth the upgrades: "I don't know the life expectancy of one of these weapons as I have never seen one worn out if cared for properly." I am no expert and would only reiterate what Scattergun Bob and AIP Tactical recommend. Accordng to Mr. Scattergun,

"I still have a unfired 870P in the safe and recently I hauled it down to the shop to compare with some express HD guns that came in. After examining both side by side my original thoughts STILL stand, you get what you pay for and there is a difference in fit, finish and quality between the 870P and the 870 express regardless of what name Remington packages the Express by."

and

"In closing let me remind you that I am in the personal protection business and am addressing the Express as a defense weapon. If it is a hunting gun, we can be more forgiving of the above mentioned parts."

AIP site says:

" I love building weapons for you guys but I would be remiss if I did not tell you this. If money is tight and you need an Remington 870 for protection or duty. Go to any Gun shop or Sporting goods store and buy a Remington 870 Home Defense model # 25077. It will come with a Remington LE 2 round extension, bead sight barrel with a fixed Cyl Bore choke. It is the best value and best made out there. It is 100% dependable and you can trust it with your life..............Latter when you are in a better financial situation you can send it to me and I will parkerize it, upgraded it with the few police parts and even upgrade some of the accessories if you want. You will then have a weapon that performs the same as the Remington 870 Police."

Dave McC · July 19, 2012, 01:57 PM

Oh, were we arguing?

Having those "Upgraded" parts may be more of a placebo than an actual advantage, IMO. However, if someone wants to pay their money for those parts, have at it. There are certainly worse things to do to a shotgun.

And someone will be along on this board and mayhap this thread waxing poetic about those worse things any minute.

On reflection, since most of the 870s here are old to quite old WMs, maybe I have a skewed view of what to expect from a new 870.

Al Den · July 19, 2012, 05:24 PM

Lots o'people upgrade things that haven't broken yet just to make them more reliable. I like car analogies. Some people check Edmunds or Consumer Reports and buy more reliable ones from the start, just for example. I wouldn't buy a Yugo, Renault or Land Rover. Need shotgun-specific examples?

I wouldn't buy a new Remington 870... I have replaced the safety switch on a Mossberg 500 with a metal one out-of-the-box...

jmortimer · July 19, 2012, 06:18 PM

"Oh, were we arguing?"
No - you are way ahead of me on this topic.

collector rob · July 20, 2012, 12:02 PM

If you are wanting an 870, here is a great deal on a police trade-in.

http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsupersto.../used-firearms

I would personally buy one of these. You can buy any accessories you want for it, refinish it, and still be ahead money-wise. They are currently out of stock but are expected in soon.

However if you just have to have a Wilson, and can afford it go right ahead!

Dave McC · July 20, 2012, 02:43 PM

Maybe, J, I've had a lot of time to think this out.

If the OP's query was, "does it take $1000 bucks to get a great defensive shotgun?", my answer would be heck,no. I'm sure you would agree.

As for the NEED for those parts, I've yet to see a verifiable instance of the MIM ones failing. Maybe they do and the government keeps hushing it up.

{Sarcasm Off}....

oneounceload · July 20, 2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't buy a new Remington 870.

THAT would depend on which one now, wouldn't it?....

July 16, 2012, 01:35 PM	#27
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	It's not worth it to me, $1000 will buy four or five of the 870s I prefer - which are older Express guns. 870s are so modular it's easy to set them up pretty much however you want with relatively few skills/tools. But if it's worth it to YOU - go for it. __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

July 16, 2012, 04:35 PM	#30
Gats Italian Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Posts: 451	I agree it's worth $850 the debate here, as it were, is it worth the MSRP, the "normal" street price, or even a grand. The consensus seems to be that it is not. Please note that the OP has not been offered to buy the specimen at $850.00, but at $1k. __________________ Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

July 16, 2012, 05:11 PM	#31
Gats Italian Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Posts: 451	Whoops. Double tapped. __________________ Leave the gun, take the cannoli. Last edited by Gats Italian; July 16, 2012 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Duplicate.

July 17, 2012, 03:11 PM	#33
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	^ Generally, I would agree, but when your life is on the line a couple inexpensive parts will increase reliability - i.e. the "Police" grade. A few extra dollars is well worth it - which is why I would only buy an 870 from AIP tactical, for less $$$ than a "P" grade 870. Here is explaintation from their web site: "All AI&P Tactical shotguns are built on the Remington 870. I will not build on anything else as I am a Remington Factory Certified Law Enforcement Armorer, certified on the 870 Police and 11-87-Police and will not build nor even work on other weapons as I am not certified on them. Except for the models built on the Police receivers all AI&P Tactical Shotguns are the same. All are built on new Remington 870 magnum receivers. We bead blast them and parkerize them. We upgrade the trigger groups and bolt. the bolt on the Express model and the blot on the P model are the exact same bolt, same matte finish and all the same parts except for the extractor. I change the extractor to the solid steel one that comes on the P model and thus a P model bolt. The trigger groups are on a polymer housing or you can upgrade to cast but all have the same internal parts. I have found the polymer to be completely durable and stays cleaner internally. I have the polymer housing on all of my weapons as do all my employees." Last edited by jmortimer; July 17, 2012 at 03:32 PM.

July 17, 2012, 03:32 PM	#34
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	Deleted Last edited by jmortimer; July 17, 2012 at 05:15 PM.

July 16, 2012, 11:27 AM	#26
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Yes, I think most anything Wilson Combat touches ...makes it a better gun that it was to start with. I have a few of their 1911's ...and if I wanted a tactical pump gun / I'd go with a Wilson Combat upgraded 870. If I wanted a semi-auto tactical shotgun - I'd go with the Benelli M-4.

July 16, 2012, 01:36 PM	#28
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	I've shot them before, actually placed first over all at the 2009 IDPA nationals shotgun side match with one. Nice but not $1000 nice, better stuff out there for that amount of money.

July 17, 2012, 01:48 PM	#32
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Gotta admit this thread leaves me a little puzzled. I've put at least 50K shells through my various 870s and oodles more through agency weapons. Total new parts, 2 firing pin springs, both in one 870TB, a well used and cherished trap gun. I see people here talk about replacing MIM parts with forged ones, but I DO NOT SEE THEM SAYING THE OLD ONES FAILED. What's the truth? Are you replacing perfectly good parts on a suppostion?

July 17, 2012, 05:14 PM	#36
Creeper Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Woooooshington Posts: 1,797	Hey "kennethlee"... havin' fun yet, or did you already unsubscribe? Cheers, C __________________ Shoulder Drive Nicholson Club

July 17, 2012, 05:27 PM	#37
TheNatureBoy Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Posts: 1,204	For me, absolutely not! For you ???????? Your money, your decision.

July 18, 2012, 01:56 PM	#38
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	J, how do you improve reliability on something that has never broken?

July 18, 2012, 02:52 PM	#39
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	Really not much to "argue" about. An 870 Express will work for a long time as you know based on your extensive experience. The up-grade parts can be had for around $50.00 and per AIP, wth the upgrades: "I don't know the life expectancy of one of these weapons as I have never seen one worn out if cared for properly." I am no expert and would only reiterate what Scattergun Bob and AIP Tactical recommend. Accordng to Mr. Scattergun, "I still have a unfired 870P in the safe and recently I hauled it down to the shop to compare with some express HD guns that came in. After examining both side by side my original thoughts STILL stand, you get what you pay for and there is a difference in fit, finish and quality between the 870P and the 870 express regardless of what name Remington packages the Express by." and "In closing let me remind you that I am in the personal protection business and am addressing the Express as a defense weapon. If it is a hunting gun, we can be more forgiving of the above mentioned parts." AIP site says: " I love building weapons for you guys but I would be remiss if I did not tell you this. If money is tight and you need an Remington 870 for protection or duty. Go to any Gun shop or Sporting goods store and buy a Remington 870 Home Defense model # 25077. It will come with a Remington LE 2 round extension, bead sight barrel with a fixed Cyl Bore choke. It is the best value and best made out there. It is 100% dependable and you can trust it with your life..............Latter when you are in a better financial situation you can send it to me and I will parkerize it, upgraded it with the few police parts and even upgrade some of the accessories if you want. You will then have a weapon that performs the same as the Remington 870 Police."

July 19, 2012, 01:57 PM	#40
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Oh, were we arguing? Having those "Upgraded" parts may be more of a placebo than an actual advantage, IMO. However, if someone wants to pay their money for those parts, have at it. There are certainly worse things to do to a shotgun. And someone will be along on this board and mayhap this thread waxing poetic about those worse things any minute. On reflection, since most of the 870s here are old to quite old WMs, maybe I have a skewed view of what to expect from a new 870.

July 19, 2012, 05:24 PM	#41
Al Den Junior member Join Date: April 28, 2012 Posts: 150	Lots o'people upgrade things that haven't broken yet just to make them more reliable. I like car analogies. Some people check Edmunds or Consumer Reports and buy more reliable ones from the start, just for example. I wouldn't buy a Yugo, Renault or Land Rover. Need shotgun-specific examples? I wouldn't buy a new Remington 870... I have replaced the safety switch on a Mossberg 500 with a metal one out-of-the-box...

July 19, 2012, 06:18 PM	#42
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	"Oh, were we arguing?" No - you are way ahead of me on this topic.

July 20, 2012, 12:02 PM	#43
collector rob Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: NW WASHINGTON Posts: 232	If you are wanting an 870, here is a great deal on a police trade-in. http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsupersto.../used-firearms I would personally buy one of these. You can buy any accessories you want for it, refinish it, and still be ahead money-wise. They are currently out of stock but are expected in soon. However if you just have to have a Wilson, and can afford it go right ahead!

July 20, 2012, 02:43 PM	#44
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Maybe, J, I've had a lot of time to think this out. If the OP's query was, "does it take $1000 bucks to get a great defensive shotgun?", my answer would be heck,no. I'm sure you would agree. As for the NEED for those parts, I've yet to see a verifiable instance of the MIM ones failing. Maybe they do and the government keeps hushing it up. {Sarcasm Off}....