.357 or .44 for CB Action

Big Cabin · December 13, 2005, 11:37 AM

I have a pair of Ruger Vaq's in both .357 and .44. The .357's are 5.5" and the .44's are 7". I like the prospect of shooting black powder cartridges in the the .44 and the look of them.
The question I guess is which of the two work the best for CBA? I am new to the game and weather permitting will go to my first shoot at the end of the month. I don't anticipate being a champion shooter and just want to compete and have fun doing it.
The .44's are almost new and have had their actions tuned along with custom, Colt profile rosewood grips added.
What do most people use? I have read that it is becoming a .357 world for those who want to be fast and at the top of the game.
Thanks,
Dana

Jim Watson · December 13, 2005, 01:57 PM

I don't think there is a "best" for the general shooter. Like you say, the gamers usually shoot .38s and lightly loaded ones at that. But a .44 makes more smoke when loaded with real gunpowder.
I shoot Duelist - one handed - and like my .44-40 Colt and Cimarron because the big holes in barrels and cylinders reduce weight and improve the balance.

Musketeer · December 13, 2005, 02:59 PM

I would like to get invovled in Cowboy shooting but money is tight so I have to limit my spending. As I am only 35 though I am certain I will get around to it. At present I have an Uberti SAA clone in 45 Colt.

I find the discussion of 38/357 vs. 44/45 interesting. I went to a shoot on Long Island over the summer and saw both being used. I distinctly remember a guy shooting 38spcl who hit the steel but did not drop it to score the hit as his rounds appeared to have the power of a well launched spitball. The good natured ridiculing he took from those around him was long and unending.

Personally I could deal with being laughed at for missing, but being made fun of for actually hittting but using such a girlie man load that I couldn't knock down the steel target would be too much to bear. I intend to only use something starting with a 4 and most likely will stick with the 45 Colt for which I already reload.

Big Cabin · December 17, 2005, 02:03 PM

I have seen guys doing their thing with .38's VERY quickly, two handed thumb fanning. I know I will never be fast enough to be a big time "gamer" and I like the the feel and the authenticity of the 7.5 barrel and the .44.
I guess I should shoot "duelist" or what ever the other class is that requires a one hand hold.
The .44Mag Vaquero's I have have custom grips and an action job that is unbelievable. I am going to sell the .357's. I am going to keep the Puma and Marlin rifles in .357 as I have a case of 1000 cartridges to shoot up and they are a hoot to shoot anyway.

Hafoc · December 17, 2005, 10:29 PM

I don't think you'll go wrong either way. If you have the .44s and they impress you, I'm sure they'll do ya fine.

(off topic ramble /on) You know, as far as I can tell, no Cowboy Action cartridge is what I would consider perfect.

.357 is a superb cartridge, and lots of use outside Cowboy Action as well as in it. The ammunition is widely available and relatively cheap. It's the darling of the "gamesters," though, which in my mind is a mark against it. And it's not authentic to the Old West. Nevertheless, just because I admire the cartridge so much, if I were to equip myself with my ideal cowboy action weapons, I'd probably take .357s.

.45 Colt is excellent too. I reload them with smokeless now, and I don't like it that much; the huge case volume leads to various problems when using a tiny pinch of smokeless. It's reasonably available (especially since Cowboy Action kicked up) and, since they make a lot of it, not that expensive, but it's always going to be more expensive than the .357. And it doesn't have the ballistics to make as good a short range rifle cartridge as the .357 is. Plus it's not authentic in anything but a revolver. Supposedly its case rim is too small to function reliably in lever actions, but I never had any trouble with it.

.44 Mag? All around excellent, but I do like the idea of something authentic for the Old West. And the .44 isn't it. Still, if you wanted a cowboy action cartridge that could make a big boom and lots of smoke with BP, and then turn around and load with smokeless to be a good "swamp gun" deer rifle, there ya go.

For me, since I would really like something authentic, .44-40 would probably be ideal. It's authentic in lever guns and revolvers, it's a true Old West-styled round. Unfortunately, it's more rare and more expensive. And from what I've heard, it's difficult to handload. It's a bottlenecked cartridge, which introduces complications, and supposedly it uses brass that's very thin and easy to smash when you try to seat the bullet.

Insert big sigh here.

(off-topic ramble /off)

Old Dragoon · December 17, 2005, 10:54 PM

Who said 44's aren't authentic...44 CF(1868 (or there abouts) were the first conversions of BP 44Cal handguns. These were .451 Groove X 440 bore(lands) almost accross the board. Far earlier than the 44-40 (1873) and the 44 Rem was made for Remington conversion and Colt Conversions and made until 1895.
Remington's first conversions were: 46 RF for the Army, and 44 CF. Old West Moulds ressurrected the 44 Rem. cartridge9detailed below).

I reload the 44 Remington loading of the Colt 44 CF cartridge. it is a 248 grn outside lubed 3 drive band rnfp heeled bullet, .451 Dia. Drive bands, .440 bore, .429 Dia Heel, 30 grns BP. It can be loaded with 5 grns Unique or equivalent fast burning smokeless if wanted. I didn't like the unburnt powder aspect of this load.

I went the 44 rem to be authentic and Kirst Konverter makes the 44 Rem Konverter. The other reason is I reload 44 Colt, 44 Rem Mag. 44 Special, and now 44 Rem CF. I chose the 44 Rem just because of the authenticity and........most others shoot 45 LC.
If you don't reload, then 45LC is the way to go.

Smokin_Gun · December 17, 2005, 11:39 PM

Hiya Old Dragoon thanks for postin that...I need to copy and paste it in my home forum...I tried explainin this but I don't think I put it accross like you jus did...be right back..

Hafoc · December 18, 2005, 10:35 AM

I should have said .44 magnum wouldn't be an authentic Old West cartridge-- dating as it does from the 1950s. But yeah, it does have a long and distinguished ancestry.

I hadn't considered ordering brass from Starline, or taking a current commercial shell and cutting it down, or that sort of thing. Maybe I should... I've always preferred cartridges I could buy at the local (rather huge for a small town) sporting goods store, since sometimes I can get a bit behind on my handloading. And when that pretty, sunny Saturday morning comes around, it's too late to handload-- you just gotta get out to the range, y'know?

Old Dragoon · December 18, 2005, 10:44 AM

Gotcha! hafoc. I too like to be able to waltz down to the local gunshow or SG store and buy, , but when I reload I do it 500 or so at a stretch...spread over a coupe or 3 nights so I have at least a box onhand always. but that's what i get for reloading obsolete cartridges. But it's fun.
I got to thinking after I posted that maybe you were referring to the Colt models after 1873.

Big Cabin · December 18, 2005, 02:34 PM

While the .44 Mag wasn't authentic the thought of shoot .44 Specials is closer. The .44 Special is very close to the .44 Rem. and while isn't quite as old is still worthy of being called a gray beard cartridge. While I have a couple of hundred .44 Mags. to shoot in the Rugers, I also have a bunch of .44 Spec. brass that I plan to play with. Some I will try with smokeless and some I will load with either BP or an equivalent like pyrodex or the new Goex replica powder.

Jbar4Ranch · December 18, 2005, 03:16 PM

The lighter the bullet/load, the quicker you can recover from recoil and get back on target for the next shot, but if your club has knock down pistol targets, a .38/.357 often won't tip 'em over, where a .44 or .45 will. If I were just starting out again, I think I'd go with the .44-40. It's a nice compromise between the standard bullet weights and recoil of the .38/.357 and the .44/.45, shooting a 200-215 grain bullet in its standard configuration. The drawback is that the .44-40 has very thin walls and you have to take extra care in reloading it. When shooting it, however, those same thin walls help to seal the breach much better with reduced loads.

SmokinTom · December 26, 2005, 09:04 AM

The .44

Big Cabin · January 6, 2006, 02:41 PM

Ok guys, I sold the .357s and ordered leather for the 44s. By the way, prices for used Old Model Vaqs have gone WAY up. I paid $530 for the pair of .357s and sold them for $400 each!

December 13, 2005, 11:37 AM	#1
Big Cabin Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 71	.357 or .44 for CB Action I have a pair of Ruger Vaq's in both .357 and .44. The .357's are 5.5" and the .44's are 7". I like the prospect of shooting black powder cartridges in the the .44 and the look of them. The question I guess is which of the two work the best for CBA? I am new to the game and weather permitting will go to my first shoot at the end of the month. I don't anticipate being a champion shooter and just want to compete and have fun doing it. The .44's are almost new and have had their actions tuned along with custom, Colt profile rosewood grips added. What do most people use? I have read that it is becoming a .357 world for those who want to be fast and at the top of the game. Thanks, Dana

December 17, 2005, 11:39 PM	#7
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Hiya Old Dragoon thanks for postin that...I need to copy and paste it in my home forum...I tried explainin this but I don't think I put it accross like you jus did...be right back.. __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

December 18, 2005, 03:16 PM	#11
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	The lighter the bullet/load, the quicker you can recover from recoil and get back on target for the next shot, but if your club has knock down pistol targets, a .38/.357 often won't tip 'em over, where a .44 or .45 will. If I were just starting out again, I think I'd go with the .44-40. It's a nice compromise between the standard bullet weights and recoil of the .38/.357 and the .44/.45, shooting a 200-215 grain bullet in its standard configuration. The drawback is that the .44-40 has very thin walls and you have to take extra care in reloading it. When shooting it, however, those same thin walls help to seal the breach much better with reduced loads. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

December 13, 2005, 01:57 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I don't think there is a "best" for the general shooter. Like you say, the gamers usually shoot .38s and lightly loaded ones at that. But a .44 makes more smoke when loaded with real gunpowder. I shoot Duelist - one handed - and like my .44-40 Colt and Cimarron because the big holes in barrels and cylinders reduce weight and improve the balance.

December 13, 2005, 02:59 PM	#3
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	I would like to get invovled in Cowboy shooting but money is tight so I have to limit my spending. As I am only 35 though I am certain I will get around to it. At present I have an Uberti SAA clone in 45 Colt. I find the discussion of 38/357 vs. 44/45 interesting. I went to a shoot on Long Island over the summer and saw both being used. I distinctly remember a guy shooting 38spcl who hit the steel but did not drop it to score the hit as his rounds appeared to have the power of a well launched spitball. The good natured ridiculing he took from those around him was long and unending. Personally I could deal with being laughed at for missing, but being made fun of for actually hittting but using such a girlie man load that I couldn't knock down the steel target would be too much to bear. I intend to only use something starting with a 4 and most likely will stick with the 45 Colt for which I already reload.

December 17, 2005, 02:03 PM	#4
Big Cabin Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 71	I have seen guys doing their thing with .38's VERY quickly, two handed thumb fanning. I know I will never be fast enough to be a big time "gamer" and I like the the feel and the authenticity of the 7.5 barrel and the .44. I guess I should shoot "duelist" or what ever the other class is that requires a one hand hold. The .44Mag Vaquero's I have have custom grips and an action job that is unbelievable. I am going to sell the .357's. I am going to keep the Puma and Marlin rifles in .357 as I have a case of 1000 cartridges to shoot up and they are a hoot to shoot anyway.

December 17, 2005, 10:29 PM	#5
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	I don't think you'll go wrong either way. If you have the .44s and they impress you, I'm sure they'll do ya fine. (off topic ramble /on) You know, as far as I can tell, no Cowboy Action cartridge is what I would consider perfect. .357 is a superb cartridge, and lots of use outside Cowboy Action as well as in it. The ammunition is widely available and relatively cheap. It's the darling of the "gamesters," though, which in my mind is a mark against it. And it's not authentic to the Old West. Nevertheless, just because I admire the cartridge so much, if I were to equip myself with my ideal cowboy action weapons, I'd probably take .357s. .45 Colt is excellent too. I reload them with smokeless now, and I don't like it that much; the huge case volume leads to various problems when using a tiny pinch of smokeless. It's reasonably available (especially since Cowboy Action kicked up) and, since they make a lot of it, not that expensive, but it's always going to be more expensive than the .357. And it doesn't have the ballistics to make as good a short range rifle cartridge as the .357 is. Plus it's not authentic in anything but a revolver. Supposedly its case rim is too small to function reliably in lever actions, but I never had any trouble with it. .44 Mag? All around excellent, but I do like the idea of something authentic for the Old West. And the .44 isn't it. Still, if you wanted a cowboy action cartridge that could make a big boom and lots of smoke with BP, and then turn around and load with smokeless to be a good "swamp gun" deer rifle, there ya go. For me, since I would really like something authentic, .44-40 would probably be ideal. It's authentic in lever guns and revolvers, it's a true Old West-styled round. Unfortunately, it's more rare and more expensive. And from what I've heard, it's difficult to handload. It's a bottlenecked cartridge, which introduces complications, and supposedly it uses brass that's very thin and easy to smash when you try to seat the bullet. Insert big sigh here. (off-topic ramble /off)

December 17, 2005, 10:54 PM	#6
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Who said 44's aren't authentic...44 CF(1868 (or there abouts) were the first conversions of BP 44Cal handguns. These were .451 Groove X 440 bore(lands) almost accross the board. Far earlier than the 44-40 (1873) and the 44 Rem was made for Remington conversion and Colt Conversions and made until 1895. Remington's first conversions were: 46 RF for the Army, and 44 CF. Old West Moulds ressurrected the 44 Rem. cartridge9detailed below). I reload the 44 Remington loading of the Colt 44 CF cartridge. it is a 248 grn outside lubed 3 drive band rnfp heeled bullet, .451 Dia. Drive bands, .440 bore, .429 Dia Heel, 30 grns BP. It can be loaded with 5 grns Unique or equivalent fast burning smokeless if wanted. I didn't like the unburnt powder aspect of this load. I went the 44 rem to be authentic and Kirst Konverter makes the 44 Rem Konverter. The other reason is I reload 44 Colt, 44 Rem Mag. 44 Special, and now 44 Rem CF. I chose the 44 Rem just because of the authenticity and........most others shoot 45 LC. If you don't reload, then 45LC is the way to go.

December 18, 2005, 10:35 AM	#8
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	I should have said .44 magnum wouldn't be an authentic Old West cartridge-- dating as it does from the 1950s. But yeah, it does have a long and distinguished ancestry. I hadn't considered ordering brass from Starline, or taking a current commercial shell and cutting it down, or that sort of thing. Maybe I should... I've always preferred cartridges I could buy at the local (rather huge for a small town) sporting goods store, since sometimes I can get a bit behind on my handloading. And when that pretty, sunny Saturday morning comes around, it's too late to handload-- you just gotta get out to the range, y'know?

December 18, 2005, 10:44 AM	#9
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Gotcha! hafoc. I too like to be able to waltz down to the local gunshow or SG store and buy, , but when I reload I do it 500 or so at a stretch...spread over a coupe or 3 nights so I have at least a box onhand always. but that's what i get for reloading obsolete cartridges. But it's fun. I got to thinking after I posted that maybe you were referring to the Colt models after 1873.

December 18, 2005, 02:34 PM	#10
Big Cabin Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 71	While the .44 Mag wasn't authentic the thought of shoot .44 Specials is closer. The .44 Special is very close to the .44 Rem. and while isn't quite as old is still worthy of being called a gray beard cartridge. While I have a couple of hundred .44 Mags. to shoot in the Rugers, I also have a bunch of .44 Spec. brass that I plan to play with. Some I will try with smokeless and some I will load with either BP or an equivalent like pyrodex or the new Goex replica powder.

December 26, 2005, 09:04 AM	#12
SmokinTom Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 479	The .44

January 6, 2006, 02:41 PM	#13
Big Cabin Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 71	Ok guys, I sold the .357s and ordered leather for the 44s. By the way, prices for used Old Model Vaqs have gone WAY up. I paid $530 for the pair of .357s and sold them for $400 each!