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Old June 14, 2024, 11:20 AM   #51
Pumpkin
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Prevent “pass thrus”?
About 30% of the shots fired by police connect with the target.
“Pass Thrus” would appear to be much less of an issue, real world.
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Old June 14, 2024, 03:24 PM   #52
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Prevent “pass thrus”?
About 30% of the shots fired by police connect with the target.
“Pass Thrus” would appear to be much less of an issue, real world.
Well, we don't want to ADD 30% now do we?

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Old June 14, 2024, 04:11 PM   #53
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IF it will reliably put down a horse, it will handle a "plus size" human with no trouble (with proper shot placement, of course)
Or even a tank!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOydrC8rsoE
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Old June 14, 2024, 08:09 PM   #54
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800lbs hogs not uncommon.

2000lbs beef not uncommon. just saying.
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Old June 14, 2024, 08:18 PM   #55
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800lbs hogs not uncommon.

2000lbs beef not uncommon. just saying.
And in both cases I would prefer ball over hollow points, preferably in 45.
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Old June 14, 2024, 08:26 PM   #56
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For the former I prefer East Carolina Vinegar sauce. The latter depends on the cut.
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Old June 14, 2024, 10:58 PM   #57
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“Pass Thrus” would appear to be much less of an issue, real world.
Pass through meaning complete penetration, an entry and an exit wound, right?

For some people this is "overpentration" but to me it is adequate penetration.

On the other hand, I'm just a single, private citizen, and one that lives in a rural area, so people on all six sides of me at across the street distance, or less is not a concern.

AND, I'm not a police agency where there might be several or more than several police shooting a year. Urban and especially metro areas with people everywhere, and lots of rounds being fired means a much, much higher possibility of "overpenetration" putting innocent people at risk. And, that not counting the fact that, by the numbers, most of the shots police fire, miss entirely.

SO, as a dept, I'd want to keep those numbers as low as possible, and would require ammo less likely to completely penetrate a person.

Down side is, there is no way possible (yet, and may never be) any way to make ammo that will reliably penetrate enough in all the myriad of real world situations that won't on occasion go all the way through and keep going.
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Old June 15, 2024, 08:06 AM   #58
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800lbs hogs not uncommon.

2000lbs beef not uncommon. just saying.
That's why I added the plus.

I was going for more of a median since some are smaller when sold.

Yes, I'm an old farm boy.
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Old June 15, 2024, 09:54 AM   #59
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This video is of a Sheriffs Deputy making a traffic stop. During the traffic stop the officer temporarily takes a couple weapons from the driver. One of those is a 1911 loaded with ball ammo. The comments are going hard on how disappointed the officer seemed when he saw the ball ammo, and how the ball ammo was a bad choice.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9QfPazB0xTU

In a 1911, in 45 auto, is ball ammo a bad choice for self defense?

1. The 1911 is not knows for feeding HP well, or at all in some cases.
2. 45 auto ball ammo worked well in WW2.
3. Even with hollow point ammo you can miss, or have over penetration and or failures to expand. Meaning regardless of ammo type you must follow the firearms safety rule of knowing tour target and what's beyond it.

What do you think, is all the hate for ball ammo, in this specific case, justified?
The video is a fake, obviously. Hopefully you can see that.
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Old June 15, 2024, 10:01 AM   #60
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That's why I added the plus.

I was going for more of a median since some are smaller when sold.

Yes, I'm an old farm boy.
Ya think?

Slaughter weight for hogs and cattle are far less than those abnormal weights. I'll bet you could visit all the farms and hunt all the land and you wouldn't find 800lb hog. A 2000 bull is only around for passing on his genetics.
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Old June 15, 2024, 10:18 AM   #61
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The video is a fake, obviously. Hopefully you can see that.
What gives it away as fake?
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Old June 15, 2024, 10:21 AM   #62
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Slaughter weight for hogs and cattle are far less than those abnormal weights.
When we talk about shooting things we talk about live weight, not slaughter weight.

I'm surprised that this has become such a BONE of contention.

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Old June 15, 2024, 01:49 PM   #63
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“Pass through” meaning yes, complete penetration.
This appears to be far less of an issue compared to the amount of stray bullets, to me anyway.
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Old Yesterday, 12:18 AM   #64
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Not every “solid” is GI roundnose.
Jeff Cooper liked the Adams bullet, a roundnose with shoulder like a SWC and also favored the Hornady jacketed flat nose.
John Lawson rearmed campus cops whose faculty were frightened by the sight of hollow points with SWCs.
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Old Yesterday, 10:28 AM   #65
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With all due respect to those who have used deadly force to remain among the living, I'm quite happy I have never shot anyone.
Which means ,like most folks, all I have to offer to this discussion is opinion.

I won't let that stop me!. No,I don't want to cause collateral damage among the innocent. That matters.
High cap double stack mag dumps seem to be what often happens,real life.
After action reports of number of rounds fired by good guys or bad guys seem to bear that out. Shooting 45 or 60 rounds,IMO,ups the possibility of collateral damage.
If I,as bystander, catch a 9mm or .40 Gold Dot miss, its going to leave a mark.
I'd probably prefer a 45 ACP hardball pass through,ignoring biohazards.

When I was sticking a 45 1911 in my Milt Sparks holster for carry,often as not it had home cast 200 gr SWC bullets in the mag.

First rule of a gunfight is "Have a Gun" Have ammo,too. Yes,HSTs or Gold Dots,etc come highly recommended.

I'm not advocating for carrying hardball. But if you have hardball in the gun when you need it, it will do! The 1911 with hardball has been reasonably effective through a lot of wars.

Talk is cheap,but I like to think in most situations I might find my sights. Hits count. My 1911 is a single stack.

It MIGHT be,sometimes, single stack shooters and wheel gunners more often place a few shots rather than spew. (Nothing wrong with more is better,but knowing you only have 7 or 8 might mean you make them count)

Wound channel? A 45 ACP at 800 to 900 fps makes a wound channel a lot like a piece of pipe. Its not a 3000 fps rifle round. I punches a hole.

If that hole cuts arteries/veins, they will bleed. It might take a while to disable. True,an expanded .750 dia hollow point likely will bleed more,faster.

Hit bones? I don't know that hardball/ penetration is a bad thing. Lets call it case by case. Bone trauma may translate to nerve trauma/bleeding.
Orthopedic hits with hardball may disable pretty well. Its case by case if a hollow point is better. Sometimes they break up or stop.

The Central Nervous System is THE stopper. A 25 ACP hardball that gets through the skull to an important part of the brain will drop anyone.

45ACP hardball place center of mass torso has a decent chance of hitting spine or ribs near the spine. Knockdown! Lets not forget the abdominal Aorta and Vena Cava. Big blood pipes!

If I have 45 ACP hardball,I'm armed! Might it be better to have expanding ammo? Sure. But 45 ACP hardball will do. I have a gun.

Collateral damage?? In a true,gravest extreme deadly force crisis ....Yes,the 4 rules apply,tempered by the deadly threat. Hit the bad guy! Don't miss!
Fewer shots fired,and the bad guy will at least slow the 850 fps bullet down.

In the end,its more about "How you use it" Than "How big it is" That includes expansion.

If the "Bad Guy" is a Cape Buffalo, it might be a 375 H+H loaded with SOLIDS and a person who can place a shot with a 375 H+H will have a good outcome. A Ballistic Tip? Not so much.
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Old Today, 10:50 AM   #66
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Careful....... let's remember that when you "put down" a horse you shoot it in the head.
Yes, but I figure that if you shoot a horse about anywhere, it will convert a cavalryman into a pedestrian. Or maybe a greasy spot.
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Old Today, 12:23 PM   #67
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Yes, but I figure that if you shoot a horse about anywhere, it will convert a cavalryman into a pedestrian. Or maybe a greasy spot.
Well.........

I have to laugh at the whole (popular but apocryphal) mythology of the army choosing the .45 because it could reliably "put down" a horse.

That bullcrap has never been proven.

You are correct that shooting the horse (or chopping off a foreleg ala Mel Gibson in the movie Braveheart) has always been an effective strategy--but it became most effective when machine guns were invented.

The army DID test handguns on animals but no horses were harmed in the process.

It's way easier to test on cows. The testing was messy and cruel. The cows died slowly. Humans have an emotional attachment to horses........cows--not so much.

And after the shooting.......we like eating cows far more than we like eating horses.

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Old Today, 01:00 PM   #68
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I have to laugh at the whole (popular but apocryphal) mythology of the army choosing the .45 because it could reliably "put down" a horse.

That bullcrap has never been proven.
Laugh all you want, its good for the soul. But do consider that there is a huge part of history, mostly about the "whys" of the "whats" that never got written down, never put into official documents, and so today there is little or no "proof" to be found, other than the stories of the past.

Even SNOPES cannot find what is not there to be found.

Consider that it was an era when often things that "everyone knew" and things that were "common sense" were rarely written into rules or laws or histories, simply because since everyone knew it, there was no point in writing it down.

Remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it is only absence of evidence.

For example, a few years back a researcher determined that firearms were rare and uncommon, and only owned by a very few people in Colonial America. He drew this conclusion from an absence of evidence in the records he studied. He studied the (surviving)wills and property bequests of Colonial era. Found that firearms were mentioned only extremely rarely, and so based his conclusion on that (and that alone, apparently).

ONE of the many points he missed taking into account was simply that, in those days, firearms and most other personal property simply wasn't specifically put into wills. Land, yes, that was formal and legal, but nearly everything else was much more informal, and things like firearms, household goods, and such simply weren't written into the wills. But since that guy didn't find evidence, he decided there was absence.

He was proven wrong, of course.


Specifically regarding .45s the Army had several decades of experience using .45 caliber pistols, knew what they did, and didn't do. "Horse down, man down" was a proven thing, and after they had a less than happy experience with the .38 revolvers of the day, they wanted the proven performance of a .45 in their new semi auto pistol round. And, they got it.
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Old Today, 01:26 PM   #69
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...absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it is only absence of evidence.
And........

..."faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
--Paul the Apostle of Jesus

Have faith, my children.

The Loch Ness Monster DOES exist.

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