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Old June 11, 2024, 07:21 AM   #1
FoghornLeghorn
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1866 lever action w/24 inch barrel

That model is the old toggle action and I already have to shoot reduced power loads (45 long Colt) in my Winchester 1873. (Reduced power, say, in comparison to what I might load for my Ruger Redhawk.)

Is a 24 inch barrel with lower 45LC loads practical? Just choose a slow burning powder?
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Old June 11, 2024, 07:57 AM   #2
Jim Watson
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Why? I thought the point of a "pistol caliber carbine", old or new, was to shoot the same ammo in handgun and rifle. Yet so many shooters treat them entirely differently.
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Old June 11, 2024, 09:07 AM   #3
FoghornLeghorn
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My other 45LC rifle is a Miroku Winchester 1873. All the data dictates lower pressure loads for toggle link action rifles. The 1866 is also toggle link, IIRC.

The late RCModel on a pertinent thread: "SAAMI spec for 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI. That is the only pressure suitable for use in any rifle with a toggle-link action."

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...Dlink%20action
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Old June 11, 2024, 09:32 AM   #4
ligonierbill
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You could use holy black! But a modest load of Unique or whatever you shoot in your '73 will do just fine.
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Old June 11, 2024, 11:31 AM   #5
jcj54
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Why different load in the 1866, 1873 Winchester vs the revolver?
The modern repro revolvers are good quality steel and will handle some pretty stout loads.
The '66 & '73 Winchesters, original or repro use a weak toggle link lockup that only handle low pressure loads.
The Winchester 1892, original or clone is a much stronger design so that would be the rifle of choice
for a rifle/revolver combo of the same caliber using heavy loads.
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Old June 11, 2024, 02:36 PM   #6
FoghornLeghorn
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Colt SAA also requires reduced loads comparable to the above.
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Old June 11, 2024, 07:32 PM   #7
Savvy_Jack
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Reduced Loads = lower than normal loads
Hot Loads = higher than normal loads

Yes, the 66" is considered a Group I "weak action" rifle by Lyman's 49th reloading manual. Only normal or reduced loads should be used.
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Old June 11, 2024, 07:38 PM   #8
Savvy_Jack
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SAAMI 2022 Pistol & Revolver Standards. (The 44-40 is in the rifle section ;-)

45 Colt
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...12-13-2022.pdf

Page 20

The rifle will be stronger than the revolvers thinner cylinder walls. The toggle is not as weak as ya might think.

SAAMI 2015 Rifle Standards
44-40
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Page 21 for CUP and page 33 for Transducer PSI
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Old June 11, 2024, 08:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
I thought the point of a "pistol caliber carbine", old or new, was to shoot the same ammo in handgun and rifle. Yet so many shooters treat them entirely differently.
150ish years ago it was the point. Rifle and handgun used the same ammo. There was normally only one, sometimes two ammo loads and everything used black powder. And the solid frame revolvers (Colt, Remington) were the ruling class and concerns about "Strength" in terms of withstanding pressure virtually didn't exist.

In our modern era there are widely differing ranges of steels, designs and powders and people have taken advantage of that to maximize performance of different guns.

IN the old days, if your pistol and your carbine shot differently (had different accuracy) it was pretty much a "learn to live with it" thing.

Today, the industry has expanded enough to offer a much wider range of options, and using them gives the ability to fine tune the ammo for a specific gun, if desired.
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Old June 12, 2024, 07:20 AM   #10
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Technically the 44 W.C.F. (Winchester)/44-40 (Marlin) was loaded for both rifle and revolvers up until about 1950.

Originally loaded with black powder, newly offered with smokeless powder in 1895. The new smokeless powder was Dupont No. 2 and loaded in "bulk", taking up the same space as black powder, but not compressed.

Aside from the 44 W.H.V. load (loaded with Sharpshooter from 1903), Dupont No. 2 was replaced by Sharpshooter powder by 1925. Although not a "bulk" powder, it was still a rifle powder that could be used in both rifle and revolver and maintain original ballistics in both. By 1950, manufactures switched to ball powders.

The ball powders began reducing rifle performance, and by 1960...factory performance was reduced in both with the use of flake/disc powders.

1,325fps originally obtained in a rifle with black powder...then settleing down to 1,310fps with ball powder. For revolvers, 9xxfps (I forget exactly) with black powder and early smokeless powder.

Velocity was reduced in order to keep pressures down with the new pistol powders. Dupont No. 2 actually created less pressures than black powder. The pressures begain to rise with the more dense powders.

By 1975, all was lost, and the 44-40 now thought to have always been a dud.

Powder samples removed from 44 cal. and 45 cal. cartridges
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