Why do people prefer pump actions over semi-auto? - Page 6

hogdogs · July 19, 2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

I found recoil to assist in pumping quite nicely, using my forward hand as an inertia-driven action, if you will

As my left arm healed, I got back behind the sights as soon as I could. I was barely able to hold up the gun and unable to actually cycle without righting the gun and deliberately doing it as I couldn't even grasp the fore stock yet. I found that with high brass, slugs or buck, the action was fully open after every shot...

Was more than 2 more months before I was back to cycling a shouldered gun. Having to regain the ability to hold a gun on target while so diminished in capacity has made me a more accurate speed shooter than I was before my accident and I am still far from 100% on that arm.

BTW, Greyson, When you try a formal clay shoot you will only be permitted to load as many rounds as upcoming dust doves.

When you first start speed firing, your limitation will be the conscious operation of the trigger by index finger... After a while, you won't even realize it has become second nature like blinking... the deliberate high speed cycling will be deliberate and will signal the brain to release the trigger and re-apply...
I find great joy in loading 6 rounds starting from 15 yards making fast forward march while shooting the target as fast as I can and seeing how far away I still am when gun is empty. The further away, the better you are cycling.
Back to the topic... this is exactly why I like the pump over an auto... I can do this several hundred times in each of several sessions, putting the thing away dirty but loaded for HD duty and have 100% confidence it will operate as it would sparkling clean. Same as a single but with several more rounds...
Brent

roy reali · July 19, 2009, 10:56 PM

I once fired two rounds out of double barrel shotgun at the same time. Beat that with a pump!

Anticonn · July 20, 2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

I once fired two rounds out of double barrel shotgun at the same time. Beat that with a pump!

Yeah? Well I can, like, benchpress a... lot.

*flexes*

Hank15 · July 20, 2009, 02:17 AM

Most people don't need a thousand dollar semiautomatic shotgun for what they're doing.

Some people just prefer the classy action/look of a pump shotgun.

While others just have more faith in the reliability of a pump shotgun.

It's mainly preference based on application.

Howaido · July 20, 2009, 06:32 AM

For me it is reliability. I had a benelli super 90 and it was not reliable enough for me, especially when dirty. Sold it.

I can afford whatever I want, but a 12 gauge auto is on the long list of guns I don't want.

I have found a small battery that I am satisfied with in terms of reliability. A pump shotgun happens to be in there somewhere.

mathman · July 20, 2009, 03:53 PM

Howaido,

Just curious...what was the Benelli doing?

Usually all it needs is lube on the bolt rails.

Only curious...

...not trying to cause a fuss...

I love my 870 (disclaimer for 870 lovers)

roy reali · July 22, 2009, 11:12 PM

So, do those of you that prefer pumps over autos because of reliability issues also prefer revolvers over pistols?

In bird hunting situations, a jam would be a pain in the rear. But, I don't think that doves or ducks are dangerous to life or limb. In a defensive situation the stakes are much higher. A malfunction in a firearm could be fatal.

A handgun is probably going to be the only weapon available, espically outside the home. If semi's are inherently unreliable then you pump fans should carry wheelguns. Revolvers have fewer malfunctions then semi-auto pistols do.

mathman · July 22, 2009, 11:17 PM

that's funny...i was wondering the same thing. i'll bet some of the pump fans trust semi auto pistols...just seems a little inconsistent.

in my experience with auto pistols and auto shotguns, i have had fewer jams in shotguns than pistols. perhaps other people's experiences are different and therefore is the reason for their preferences.

hogdogs · July 22, 2009, 11:26 PM

Quote:

So, do those of you that prefer pumps over autos because of reliability issues also prefer revolvers over pistols?

Personally, I feel autoloader shotguns and pistols are far and away 2 separate monsters.
Everyone realizes a pistol may not feed HP ammo like round nose but these concerns get addressed. With shot guns you have a flat faced round that is the hardest to feed right off the bat... Then you have so many variables such as pay load, powder charge that vary so much farther than pistol ammo will. we then have issues with plastic hulls that can suffer slight deformation such as dents, kinks, bulges and the like while the action cycles... Yes it occurs in a pump too but not with a single mechanical action that is "PASS or FAIL" feed or jam. Then we have the metal base of a wide variety of length and material.
Brent

roy reali · July 22, 2009, 11:57 PM

If a fellow is out shooting doves with his auto shotgun and it jams he will porbably get frustrated. If a guy is walking through a park and a thug jumps him and his auto pistol jams, he is dead. Auto pistols do malfunction, maybe not as often as self-loading shotguns, but the consequences are higher. I find that someone that is paranoid with autos malfunctioning might be a bit hypocritical if he doesn't CCW a revolver.

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 12:09 AM

I see your point... But I think the only hand gun I ever had a mechanical failure with was a revolver with wore out "indexer"...
I don't knock an auto shot gun for HD... I just haven't ever developed a faith in them and rather lost faith with a like new winchester that jammed ALL THE DERN TIME! I don't think it fired 3 in a row often. Granted it was an older make and the new stuff is likely great. My favorite semi pistol stovepiped on range loads routinely but never failed with the old winchester silver tips. I had 100% faith in that pistol.
Brent

johnbt · July 23, 2009, 02:34 PM

"So, do those of you that prefer pumps over autos because of reliability issues also prefer revolvers over pistols? "

So now we're comparing pump shotguns to revolvers? They are two different mechanisms. Maybe the comparison would be closer to being valid if there was a pump pistol.

Heck, is there an autoloading shotgun that uses Mr. Browning's tilting barrel lock-up? Again, two different designs and usually two different feeding mechanisms.

All y'all are trying too hard and making a biiiig stretch with that kind of comparison.

John

MLeake · July 23, 2009, 02:47 PM

... but if one wants to compare anecdotal reliability, I've had more problems with revolvers than I have had with my semi-autos (not counting one particular 1911 with FTF and FTRB issues that I got rid of after my gunsmith couldn't resolve its problems).

Older revolver had timing issues that required repair - got to where trigger pull got heavy or completely locked up on one round in six. Newer revolver shed a plastic insert sight while shooting magnum loads. Newer revolver extractor somehow failed to catch rim of .357 brass and left one empty stuck in cylinder, then the extractor couldn't re-seat and I had to pry the brass out with a multi-tool...

The only reason I prefer a revolver in the woods is that it can be loaded heavier than a semi-auto in similar caliber.

mathman · July 23, 2009, 06:01 PM

So, where are we now?

I guess the conclusion is: any firearm of any sort can be a POS depending on a lot of things. All designs have good models and bad...and all models have individual specimens that are good and bad...

So, the bottom line is: pick something and practice a lot...not only to improve your own ability, but also to see if you got a good one or a bad one from the lot.

Logjam · July 23, 2009, 07:11 PM

Pumps popular?

Yep they're popular alright, and I can give you several reasons. One they have an "old timey" feel about them. Lots of shooters are drawn to the guns of old, whether they are actually "old" or not.

So the '97 still has a following, as do the Model 31's and Ithica 37's and of course the Model 12 (I have the 20 and love it.) The Rem 870 just may have killed more things that move on wings during this past century than any other shotgun.

Also the pumps (especially old ones) are a bit lighter and sometimes they are slimmer too. So they feel good, and swing easily.

Lastly the pump is a bit safer to handle. I'd rather hunt with a guy who is shooting a pump that an auto. He has to pump after each shot and generally understands where the next shell is; either in the magazine or in the breech.

How fast do you need that second shot anyway? I've known pump shooters who can shoot that thing like an M-60.

The very best pump? Well, my fav is all of them, but I kind of lean to the model 37.

Hank15 · July 23, 2009, 07:13 PM

Now that we're talking about reliability, I think I know why people prefer pump actions for defense.

It's the mentality that "With a pump shotgun, I decide when the weapon malfunctions."

And with a semi...."The gun decides when it malfunctions."

That's just my observation; it doesn't apply to everyone.

roy reali · July 23, 2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Lastly the pump is a bit safer to handle. I'd rather hunt with a guy who is shooting a pump that an auto. He has to pump after each shot and generally understands where the next shell is; either in the magazine or in the breech.

Wouldn't an over and under or a side-by-side shotgun be even safer? Moving a lever a few degrees renders the gun safe. When the shotgun is open, the weather there is a round in the chamber question, is easily and quickly answered.

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

I'd rather hunt with a guy who is shooting a pump that an auto. He has to pump after each shot and generally understands where the next shell is; either in the magazine or in the breech.

Quote:

Wouldn't an over and under or a side-by-side shotgun be even safer?

In this case wouldn't a single be safest

was it a pump or auto loader that Cheney used on that lawyer feller?
Brent

SeekHer · July 23, 2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

hogdogs -- I see your point...I just haven't ever developed a faith in them and rather lost faith with a like new Winchester that jammed ALL THE DERN TIME! I don't think it fired 3 in a row often. Granted it was an older make and the new stuff is likely great.

My favorite semi pistol stovepiped on range loads routinely but never failed with the old Winchester silver tips. I had 100% faith in that pistol.

Did you buy the shotgun new? If yes, why didn't you take it back to the store and demand they repair, replace or refund? If not, why didn't you take it into a smith or at least wrote to Winchester and maybe they would have done something, like had you send it to them and they fix it or suggested a warranty (or not) smith in your area...

How can you have 100% faith in a pistol that you know stovepipes? You don't use range loads in it, OK, but then it isn't 100% effective...Can you adjust it so that it will accept all loads, without stovepiping as it should? Are you sure that it will only stovepipe with that specific load? What about a lighter load, yet? Tried it and does it stovepipe? If yes, then you just decreased the efficiency of the handgun further! If not, then why, when a more powerful (slightly) range load wouldn't work?

Other then rimfire, I have only .41 mag pistols...SA and DA revolvers and as long as the cartridge fits into the cylinder and the bullet doesn't stick out the other end, I know that when I pull that trigger it is going to go bang--as long as the ammo isn't faulty and I won't know that until I pull the trigger, now won't I? The only problem, with 20 revolvers that I own, is I had a cylinder fail to revolve on me (the little gear lost some cogs) but I could move it by hand to fire the next cartridge and that worked fine and took in to the gun store where it was bought and they fixed it, as they should and it's also their legal responsibility!

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Did you buy the shotgun new? If yes, why didn't you take it back to the store and demand they repair, replace or refund? If not, why didn't you take it into a smith

Nope, used but very little and in Like New/ barely used condition. I cleaned it and it still jammed like crazy. I then took it to the local smith and he verified I had no parts in wrong and no worn/broken parts and went on to say that this model... 1200 or 1300 IIRC was commonly referred to as a jam-o-matic which is exactly what junior and I called her. Smith went on to suggest some "super high brass" hot Rio loads. They were better but we noticed tons of damage to the top edge of the brass as it was catching on something in the feed end of the thing peeling and rolling the brass. It was a mid '70's to early 80's offering. Winchester being less than a fluid company, I have little faith in sending them anything and to top it off I just don't send things back. If they can't build it right, or me fix it... I just off it for what it is... "It jams like mad, it is worth $XXX to me for what i got in it and $XXX in market value... SOLD!!!! To the highest bidder!
Brent

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

How can you have 100% faith in a pistol that you know stovepipes? You don't use range loads in it, OK, but then it isn't 100% effective...

Stovepiped on the $5.00 white UNMARKED range ammo... 5,000 rounds plus of winchester ST's and never a failure of any type. From fresh clean to one session where i ran over 500 in one sitting... nary an issue so, YES, 100% faith I had a semi auto so long as i used the first ammo that fed 100% of the time.
I didn't go thru the whole list of 1990 premium ammo... I went down the list until I found one able to go 500 rounds without issue... Same as my Mossberg 500 and now it has near or over 10K down the pipe and has never once failed to feed or fire nor a broken part...
Brent

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

If a fellow is out shooting doves with his auto shotgun and it jams he will porbably get frustrated. If a guy is walking through a park and a thug jumps him and his auto pistol jams, he is dead. Auto pistols do malfunction, maybe not as often as self-loading shotguns, but the consequences are higher. I find that someone that is paranoid with autos malfunctioning might be a bit hypocritical if he doesn't CCW a revolver.

I favor a pump shotgun and like a SAA for playing but I'd rather carry a 1911.

kiwi56 · July 23, 2009, 08:45 PM

I think a lot of the reason this perception of pumps being more reliable than semi's came about was because it was started by the police forces and army decades ago.
The most probable reasons the military and police forces didn't go for semi's was it was thought that semis were more expensive to both buy and maintain. There was the added safety factor that once a semi has been fired unless it has a magazine cut off as in the Browning A500 the next round would be automatically loaded where as with a pump gun it has to be manually done, the police departments were probably just allowing for the fact that most of their officers did not receive much in the way of firearms training. I do think that this situation would have been more cost related than safety. I do believe that a good shooter with a pump can inflict just as much damage as can be done with a semi.
The British police went through a similar thing for years and years choosing revolvers (Webley and later S&W) over semi auto pistols because of the percieved reliability advantage, however this has changed in recent years with the issue of 9mm Glocks.

kozak6 · July 24, 2009, 04:30 AM

Police forces also often prefer pump shotguns since they are able reliably fire beanbags, riot, and door breaching cartridges.

I'd also imagine that cost is also quite significant.

spyderdude · July 24, 2009, 05:32 AM

Pump guns in general are considerably cheaper than many of the semi auto shotguns on the market. I've gotten so used to shooting a pump shotgun that when I go to shoot a semi auto I try to manually cycle the action only to realize the forearm doesn't move and there is a spent shell already laying on the ground.

At least with pump guns you can shoot even the lightest of loads while semi-autos are more finicky about what ammo they will and will not accept. Not only that hearing the sound of the action on a pump shotgun is music to my ears so as long as I am not on the receiving end of it! I would like to get a Benelli M3 because with that you got the best of both worlds. I can switch it to semi-auto or pump action for shooting lighter loads.

July 19, 2009, 10:56 PM	#127
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Even Faster I once fired two rounds out of double barrel shotgun at the same time. Beat that with a pump!

July 20, 2009, 06:32 AM	#130
Howaido Member Join Date: July 13, 2008 Posts: 29	For me it is reliability. I had a benelli super 90 and it was not reliable enough for me, especially when dirty. Sold it. I can afford whatever I want, but a 12 gauge auto is on the long list of guns I don't want. I have found a small battery that I am satisfied with in terms of reliability. A pump shotgun happens to be in there somewhere. __________________ I got the last good 870 Express and you can't have it.

July 20, 2009, 03:53 PM	#131
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	Howaido, Just curious...what was the Benelli doing? Usually all it needs is lube on the bolt rails. Only curious... ...not trying to cause a fuss... I love my 870 (disclaimer for 870 lovers) __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

July 22, 2009, 11:12 PM	#132
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Reliability? So, do those of you that prefer pumps over autos because of reliability issues also prefer revolvers over pistols? In bird hunting situations, a jam would be a pain in the rear. But, I don't think that doves or ducks are dangerous to life or limb. In a defensive situation the stakes are much higher. A malfunction in a firearm could be fatal. A handgun is probably going to be the only weapon available, espically outside the home. If semi's are inherently unreliable then you pump fans should carry wheelguns. Revolvers have fewer malfunctions then semi-auto pistols do.

July 22, 2009, 11:17 PM	#133
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	that's funny...i was wondering the same thing. i'll bet some of the pump fans trust semi auto pistols...just seems a little inconsistent. in my experience with auto pistols and auto shotguns, i have had fewer jams in shotguns than pistols. perhaps other people's experiences are different and therefore is the reason for their preferences. __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

July 20, 2009, 02:17 AM	#129
Hank15 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: California Posts: 437	Most people don't need a thousand dollar semiautomatic shotgun for what they're doing. Some people just prefer the classy action/look of a pump shotgun. While others just have more faith in the reliability of a pump shotgun. It's mainly preference based on application.

July 22, 2009, 11:57 PM	#135
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	re:hogdogs If a fellow is out shooting doves with his auto shotgun and it jams he will porbably get frustrated. If a guy is walking through a park and a thug jumps him and his auto pistol jams, he is dead. Auto pistols do malfunction, maybe not as often as self-loading shotguns, but the consequences are higher. I find that someone that is paranoid with autos malfunctioning might be a bit hypocritical if he doesn't CCW a revolver.

July 23, 2009, 12:09 AM	#136
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I see your point... But I think the only hand gun I ever had a mechanical failure with was a revolver with wore out "indexer"... I don't knock an auto shot gun for HD... I just haven't ever developed a faith in them and rather lost faith with a like new winchester that jammed ALL THE DERN TIME! I don't think it fired 3 in a row often. Granted it was an older make and the new stuff is likely great. My favorite semi pistol stovepiped on range loads routinely but never failed with the old winchester silver tips. I had 100% faith in that pistol. Brent

July 23, 2009, 02:34 PM	#137
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"So, do those of you that prefer pumps over autos because of reliability issues also prefer revolvers over pistols? " So now we're comparing pump shotguns to revolvers? They are two different mechanisms. Maybe the comparison would be closer to being valid if there was a pump pistol. Heck, is there an autoloading shotgun that uses Mr. Browning's tilting barrel lock-up? Again, two different designs and usually two different feeding mechanisms. All y'all are trying too hard and making a biiiig stretch with that kind of comparison. John

July 23, 2009, 02:47 PM	#138
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Sort of a tangent... ... but if one wants to compare anecdotal reliability, I've had more problems with revolvers than I have had with my semi-autos (not counting one particular 1911 with FTF and FTRB issues that I got rid of after my gunsmith couldn't resolve its problems). Older revolver had timing issues that required repair - got to where trigger pull got heavy or completely locked up on one round in six. Newer revolver shed a plastic insert sight while shooting magnum loads. Newer revolver extractor somehow failed to catch rim of .357 brass and left one empty stuck in cylinder, then the extractor couldn't re-seat and I had to pry the brass out with a multi-tool... The only reason I prefer a revolver in the woods is that it can be loaded heavier than a semi-auto in similar caliber.

July 23, 2009, 06:01 PM	#139
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	So, where are we now? I guess the conclusion is: any firearm of any sort can be a POS depending on a lot of things. All designs have good models and bad...and all models have individual specimens that are good and bad... So, the bottom line is: pick something and practice a lot...not only to improve your own ability, but also to see if you got a good one or a bad one from the lot. __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

July 23, 2009, 07:11 PM	#140
Logjam Member Join Date: July 23, 2009 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 38	Pumps popular? Yep they're popular alright, and I can give you several reasons. One they have an "old timey" feel about them. Lots of shooters are drawn to the guns of old, whether they are actually "old" or not. So the '97 still has a following, as do the Model 31's and Ithica 37's and of course the Model 12 (I have the 20 and love it.) The Rem 870 just may have killed more things that move on wings during this past century than any other shotgun. Also the pumps (especially old ones) are a bit lighter and sometimes they are slimmer too. So they feel good, and swing easily. Lastly the pump is a bit safer to handle. I'd rather hunt with a guy who is shooting a pump that an auto. He has to pump after each shot and generally understands where the next shell is; either in the magazine or in the breech. How fast do you need that second shot anyway? I've known pump shooters who can shoot that thing like an M-60. The very best pump? Well, my fav is all of them, but I kind of lean to the model 37.

July 23, 2009, 07:13 PM	#141
Hank15 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: California Posts: 437	Now that we're talking about reliability, I think I know why people prefer pump actions for defense. It's the mentality that "With a pump shotgun, I decide when the weapon malfunctions." And with a semi...."The gun decides when it malfunctions." That's just my observation; it doesn't apply to everyone.

July 23, 2009, 08:45 PM	#148
kiwi56 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Auckland NewZealand Posts: 350	pump over semi I think a lot of the reason this perception of pumps being more reliable than semi's came about was because it was started by the police forces and army decades ago. The most probable reasons the military and police forces didn't go for semi's was it was thought that semis were more expensive to both buy and maintain. There was the added safety factor that once a semi has been fired unless it has a magazine cut off as in the Browning A500 the next round would be automatically loaded where as with a pump gun it has to be manually done, the police departments were probably just allowing for the fact that most of their officers did not receive much in the way of firearms training. I do think that this situation would have been more cost related than safety. I do believe that a good shooter with a pump can inflict just as much damage as can be done with a semi. The British police went through a similar thing for years and years choosing revolvers (Webley and later S&W) over semi auto pistols because of the percieved reliability advantage, however this has changed in recent years with the issue of 9mm Glocks.

July 24, 2009, 04:30 AM	#149
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Police forces also often prefer pump shotguns since they are able reliably fire beanbags, riot, and door breaching cartridges. I'd also imagine that cost is also quite significant.

July 24, 2009, 05:32 AM	#150
spyderdude Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Posts: 579	Pump guns in general are considerably cheaper than many of the semi auto shotguns on the market. I've gotten so used to shooting a pump shotgun that when I go to shoot a semi auto I try to manually cycle the action only to realize the forearm doesn't move and there is a spent shell already laying on the ground. At least with pump guns you can shoot even the lightest of loads while semi-autos are more finicky about what ammo they will and will not accept. Not only that hearing the sound of the action on a pump shotgun is music to my ears so as long as I am not on the receiving end of it! I would like to get a Benelli M3 because with that you got the best of both worlds. I can switch it to semi-auto or pump action for shooting lighter loads.

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