Do You Buy Innovative Handguns? - Page 2

444 · January 17, 2018, 01:56 PM

A few of the things I am actively looking for and will buy if the opportunity presents itself.

The Kel Tec PMR-30 (a .22 Mag semi-auto with a flush fitting double stack 30 round magazine).
The FN 5.7 pistol.
Neither are brand new, but fairly new and different. Why do I want them ? Because I think they are cool. As I said before, I have umpteen S&W revolvers and more than a half dozen 1911s. They are somewhat boring to me.

I just ordered one of those 80% "Glock" frames to finish.
Why ? Just for the heck of it. I own a half dozen Glocks in 9mm. The 43, the 26, the 34, two 17s, and a 17L. I don't own a 19. So, rather than just going out and buying a 19, I figured I would make one. Because, why not ? I couldn't care less if it costs me more or less than just buying one. I want to do it.

I am definitely not one of these guys that views guns as tools. I don't need some specific reason or purpose to own a gun. I buy and shoot guns because it is fun. Part of the fun for me is trying new things. FWIW: I don't care about hunting or the defensive use of firearms. I might hunt. I might carry a CCW pistol. But those purposes are way, way down the list of why I might buy or own a gun.

RickB · January 17, 2018, 02:00 PM

Glock's real success was marketing, not engineering or manufacturing.

They convinced the market that a gun costing $100 to make, was close enough in utility to a $600 gun that you'd pay $500 for the Glock.

GarandTd · January 17, 2018, 02:20 PM

I'm (hopefully) picking up an aluminum framed pistol tonight, if that counts.

Cheapshooter · January 17, 2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Glock's real success was marketing, not engineering or manufacturing.

Yeah, the Safe Action Trigger, simplicity of design, rock solid performance, reliability, and light weight had absolutely nothing to do with both their success, and industry wide mimicking!

TruthTellers · January 17, 2018, 03:50 PM

Yeah, Glock is a great pistol, but I fail to see how it (and any other polymer pistol) should cost more than $400.

I think the reason new Glock's cost over $500 is because they're mostly selling them to military and police and they have taxpayer's money to pay for it.

Innovative design, absolutely. Before the Glock, every gun was all steel, had to have a hammer, didn't have any magazines that were compatible across different models, were put together like a Swiss watch so the teardown and cleaning took half a day.

Glock said, "It doesn't have to be this way..." and did his thing.

And never did anything else beyond that.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 17, 2018, 04:13 PM

This isn't Economics 101 and people's fantasy view of what things should cost.

Go read about restaurant food pricing vs. cost.

Back to topic or this one is closed. It's cool to complain about Glocks. You go and invent the competitor for $75 and then come back and tell us about your economic and engineering genius.

DukeConnor · January 17, 2018, 04:48 PM

My last 3 purchases have been gen 2 or 3 smiths. Currently they are the only handguns that interest me.

BBarn · January 17, 2018, 04:50 PM

Innovation is fine, but not one of the things high on my list when choosing a firearm. I'm more interested in durability, reliability, low parts count, lack of cheap fasteners (like roll pins), and overall design execution.

Innovation can be good and lead to success, but neither is a sure thing. Consider the P7, versus the Colt 2000, and Ruger Hawkeye (handgun).

Schlitz 45 · January 17, 2018, 05:54 PM

Yes, & I’m having a hard time finding trounds for my Dardick 1500.

hdwhit · January 17, 2018, 05:59 PM

Quote:

wmg1299 asked:
Do many of you adopt new firearm technologies immediately?

Not really sure how to answer that.

Are we talking a new caliber? A new way of building guns (i.e. polymer frame vs. steel)? A new operating principle (i.e. blow-forward vs. blow-back)?

In general, I become aware of a need for a gun when I have a specific need (or occasionally a strong want) and then I locate a gun that meets those requirements. When I wanted a 9mm pistol to shoot 991 rounds of brass I was going to reload (not intending to shoot more since I was already invested in my M1911), I shopped purely on price. So, in that case I didn't go looking for a new technology.

TheGunGeek · January 17, 2018, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

TheGunGeek, you missed Glock on your list. Not just because of the innovative use of modern materials, but innovative simplicity in design as well.

It's because I personally don't consider the Glock that innovative or special. They made a cheap, reliable gun with poor user function IMO. Their marketing team has done a great job selling the product through cost and reliability stunts, but that's all.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 17, 2018, 09:04 PM

Oh, yawn. What did I say? Folks are oh so smart with their critiques of Glocks.

Can we stop this diversion in the thread and answer the question. It speaks to the new waves of guns coming out.

One more chance to stay on topic or get it closed and you get infracted for off topic posts.

Model12Win · January 17, 2018, 10:31 PM

No.

I buy old Smith and Ruger revolvers.

I trust em. Not so much the "innovative" stuff. Wanted to trust my LCP-II new in box till in busted hard on box #2 of shells. Yuck.

I'll tuck an old wheelgun in my belt and have no qualms.

Josh Smith · January 17, 2018, 10:50 PM

The 1911 was one of the more innovative handguns.

So, yes.

I own a Gewehr rifle, too. Innovative but not successful.

Regards,

Josh

Cheapshooter · January 18, 2018, 12:20 AM

I do have a couple I would consider innovative. A couple milsurps. CZ 52 with it's MG42 roller lock system. An 1895 Nagant with it's sliding cylinder. In the commercial gun category I guess my most innovative is a Kel-Tec PMR 30.
I was interested in the USFA ZIP 22, and probably would buy one for the right price. Even with the unanimous poor reviews. Now I am waiting patiently for the Standard Manufacturing Volley Fire to be brought to market.
Never really warmed up to the Taurus View with it's clear side plate, or the Curve. I have my limits! LOL

TruthTellers · January 18, 2018, 01:25 AM

^ I didn't know about this VolleyFire or that it existed, yet I just looked and saw my comment from last year about it on TTAG.

Yeah, what an "invoative" pistol. I'll say the same thing I said last year about it: pass.

I don't like it being in .25 ACP, ammo is costly compared to .22 LR and Mag. For defense, it's not even as powerful as .22 LR. Why would anyone buy it compared to a .25 Beretta? Or a Raven .25 that holds the same amount of rounds, but gives an extra 3 shots and faster reloads?

At least with .22 Mag, with a firing pin hitting two cartridges, it can mitigate the misfires of rimfire, so at least one shot would go off. Then, if both fired, two hits would be better than one. Even then, I'd rather have it in .22 LR and just for a range toy, which is what most "invoative" guns are.

I doubt the gun will ever come out because nobody will be willing to pay more than $200 for it.

**JohnKSa** · January 18, 2018, 01:39 AM

Sometimes I do.

Sometimes it works out--my STI GP6 (Grand Power K100) has been a winner.

Sometimes it doesn't--my Caracal was recalled.

Cosmodragoon · January 18, 2018, 01:48 AM

The rotating barrel isn't a new idea but I think the Beretta PX4 Storm was innovative. It's a superb firearm.

It's a cartridge as opposed to a gun but I like .327 Federal Magnum. When five or six rounds is the norm, an extra shot is great. It's also nice to get power levels between 9mm and .357 magnum with recoil more on par with .38 special. It's cool to see technology advancing cartridge design for wheel guns.

I also like some of what I've been seeing with modern manufacturing and new copper solids. The Xtreme Penetrators from Lehigh, for instance, offer something new and actually interesting.

TruthTellers · January 18, 2018, 02:04 AM

Well, if we're gonna include ammunition in this discussion, I'm gonna have to toot the Polycase ammunition horn again. The blended copper/polymer bullet is really incredible when you consider it lowers recoil, yet is as damaging to the human body as a hollow point is, yet will never have failures to expand like a hollow point can or be a danger if, inconceivably, it overpenetrates.

From 2 inch barrels to 20 inches, the Polycase is going to preform the same and its going to make magazines weigh a third less than what they do with normal ammunition.

And the possibility that the range ammunition without the flutes might be as effective as the defense ammo with the flutes is in tumbling in the body makes my wallet giddy because I could practice with the same ammunition I use for defense. Oh, and in .38, .380, and 9mm it's very reasonably priced. Maybe not as cheap as steel case, but it is what it is.

If Polycase wants to do something crazy, they should make the ammo in an aluminum case. With the polymer bullet, it would make the loaded cartridges so light they may actually float away!

.327 is innovative? A longer case that holds more powder and has thicker walls isn't innovative, Dick Casull did it with .454 and people before him did it with .44 and .357 Magnum. I love .327, but not innovative.

Cosmodragoon · January 18, 2018, 03:33 AM

Quote:

.327 is innovative? A longer case that holds more powder and has thicker walls isn't innovative...

I think it is when they are blazing new ground, doing it on a small scale at high pressure for smaller arms to offer the new benefits I mentioned previously. Speaking of those smaller arms, I think the LCR is a nifty innovation too. Of course, I'm no expert.

kozak6 · January 18, 2018, 07:52 AM

No.

Handguns are fairly mature technology. Consider the popularity and age of the 1911. These days, pretty much all innovation is in materials and manufacturing.

Furthermore, innovative pistols tend to be fairly expensive, and risky since the high cost and unproven principals often result in discontinuation.

Lohman446 · January 18, 2018, 08:12 AM

I've been trying to place my finger on what innovative is. At first I wanted to note there is nothing innovative in pistols. But there is to some degree in my lifetime.

Striker fired
10MM
Rotating barrel
The idea of a "bullpup" pistol where the magazine is in front of the chamber

The list goes on awhile. My initial answer was "no I do not buy innovative" and yet I carry a striker fired pistol and have a bit of a crush on the 10MM round.

So at some point I do buy "innovative." I thought about this a lot as I tried to put my finger on what innovative is and why I don't buy more innovative (or have not in the past) or if I am just wrong and actually do buy innovative.

It then occurred to me... most of the time the innovators don't "make it" The best known striker fired pistols were not the first. 10MM in its infancy is best described as a failure. So if "innovative" means first to market with new technology I don't buy it. I let other companies find the flaws and adjust before considering innovative.

jmr40 · January 18, 2018, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Yeah, Glock is a great pistol, but I fail to see how it (and any other polymer pistol) should cost more than $400.

The cost to produce anything has nothing to do with it's value. We pay hundreds of dollars every day for products where the packaging costs the manufacturer more than the product inside. It's not just guns.

I'm not afraid to try new things. Some work, most don't. But if people didn't keep trying new things we'd still be defending ourselves with spears and communicating by carving messages in stone.

Cheapshooter · January 18, 2018, 10:21 AM

Quote:

I don't like it being in .25 ACP, ammo is costly compared to .22 LR and Mag.

Agree. That's why I will wait for the 22 Mag. or Long Rifle model.
Of course it's just business response, but I did contact Standard Manufacturing, and they said they still plan to put the Volley Fire in production. Just been busy with another product. Thinking maybe their double barreled pump shotgun.

m&p45acp10+1 · January 18, 2018, 10:54 AM

I was going to buy a model 40 Glock. I admit I want one. I have no real practical role for it that is not already filled. I was at a gun show with the cash to buy one. I left the show with a Colt Trooper Mk.III .357 mag with 6 inch barrel that is in as close to like new as one that I shoot will ever be.

I still plan to get the Glock some day. It is just that a Colt in that condition at that price was too good of a deal for me to walk away from. I can always get the Glock from somewhere later on down the road.

January 17, 2018, 01:56 PM	#26
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	A few of the things I am actively looking for and will buy if the opportunity presents itself. The Kel Tec PMR-30 (a .22 Mag semi-auto with a flush fitting double stack 30 round magazine). The FN 5.7 pistol. Neither are brand new, but fairly new and different. Why do I want them ? Because I think they are cool. As I said before, I have umpteen S&W revolvers and more than a half dozen 1911s. They are somewhat boring to me. I just ordered one of those 80% "Glock" frames to finish. Why ? Just for the heck of it. I own a half dozen Glocks in 9mm. The 43, the 26, the 34, two 17s, and a 17L. I don't own a 19. So, rather than just going out and buying a 19, I figured I would make one. Because, why not ? I couldn't care less if it costs me more or less than just buying one. I want to do it. I am definitely not one of these guys that views guns as tools. I don't need some specific reason or purpose to own a gun. I buy and shoot guns because it is fun. Part of the fun for me is trying new things. FWIW: I don't care about hunting or the defensive use of firearms. I might hunt. I might carry a CCW pistol. But those purposes are way, way down the list of why I might buy or own a gun. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

January 17, 2018, 02:00 PM	#27
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Glock's real success was marketing, not engineering or manufacturing. They convinced the market that a gun costing $100 to make, was close enough in utility to a $600 gun that you'd pay $500 for the Glock. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

January 17, 2018, 02:20 PM	#28
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	I'm (hopefully) picking up an aluminum framed pistol tonight, if that counts. __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

January 17, 2018, 03:50 PM	#30
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	Yeah, Glock is a great pistol, but I fail to see how it (and any other polymer pistol) should cost more than $400. I think the reason new Glock's cost over $500 is because they're mostly selling them to military and police and they have taxpayer's money to pay for it. Innovative design, absolutely. Before the Glock, every gun was all steel, had to have a hammer, didn't have any magazines that were compatible across different models, were put together like a Swiss watch so the teardown and cleaning took half a day. Glock said, "It doesn't have to be this way..." and did his thing. And never did anything else beyond that. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

January 17, 2018, 04:13 PM	#31
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This isn't Economics 101 and people's fantasy view of what things should cost. Go read about restaurant food pricing vs. cost. Back to topic or this one is closed. It's cool to complain about Glocks. You go and invent the competitor for $75 and then come back and tell us about your economic and engineering genius. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 17, 2018, 04:48 PM	#32
DukeConnor Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2016 Posts: 224	My last 3 purchases have been gen 2 or 3 smiths. Currently they are the only handguns that interest me.

January 17, 2018, 04:50 PM	#33
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Innovation is fine, but not one of the things high on my list when choosing a firearm. I'm more interested in durability, reliability, low parts count, lack of cheap fasteners (like roll pins), and overall design execution. Innovation can be good and lead to success, but neither is a sure thing. Consider the P7, versus the Colt 2000, and Ruger Hawkeye (handgun). Last edited by BBarn; January 17, 2018 at 10:06 PM.

January 17, 2018, 05:54 PM	#34
Schlitz 45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2018 Location: Colorado Posts: 385	Yes, & I’m having a hard time finding trounds for my Dardick 1500. Last edited by Schlitz 45; January 18, 2018 at 01:08 PM.

January 17, 2018, 09:04 PM	#37
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Oh, yawn. What did I say? Folks are oh so smart with their critiques of Glocks. Can we stop this diversion in the thread and answer the question. It speaks to the new waves of guns coming out. One more chance to stay on topic or get it closed and you get infracted for off topic posts. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 17, 2018, 10:31 PM	#38
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	No. I buy old Smith and Ruger revolvers. I trust em. Not so much the "innovative" stuff. Wanted to trust my LCP-II new in box till in busted hard on box #2 of shells. Yuck. I'll tuck an old wheelgun in my belt and have no qualms.

January 17, 2018, 10:50 PM	#39
Josh Smith member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wabash IN Posts: 740	The 1911 was one of the more innovative handguns. So, yes. I own a Gewehr rifle, too. Innovative but not successful. Regards, Josh

January 18, 2018, 12:20 AM	#40
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	I do have a couple I would consider innovative. A couple milsurps. CZ 52 with it's MG42 roller lock system. An 1895 Nagant with it's sliding cylinder. In the commercial gun category I guess my most innovative is a Kel-Tec PMR 30. I was interested in the USFA ZIP 22, and probably would buy one for the right price. Even with the unanimous poor reviews. Now I am waiting patiently for the Standard Manufacturing Volley Fire to be brought to market. Never really warmed up to the Taurus View with it's clear side plate, or the Curve. I have my limits! LOL __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

January 18, 2018, 01:25 AM	#41
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	^ I didn't know about this VolleyFire or that it existed, yet I just looked and saw my comment from last year about it on TTAG. Yeah, what an "invoative" pistol. I'll say the same thing I said last year about it: pass. I don't like it being in .25 ACP, ammo is costly compared to .22 LR and Mag. For defense, it's not even as powerful as .22 LR. Why would anyone buy it compared to a .25 Beretta? Or a Raven .25 that holds the same amount of rounds, but gives an extra 3 shots and faster reloads? At least with .22 Mag, with a firing pin hitting two cartridges, it can mitigate the misfires of rimfire, so at least one shot would go off. Then, if both fired, two hits would be better than one. Even then, I'd rather have it in .22 LR and just for a range toy, which is what most "invoative" guns are. I doubt the gun will ever come out because nobody will be willing to pay more than $200 for it. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

January 18, 2018, 01:39 AM	#42
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,986	Sometimes I do. Sometimes it works out--my STI GP6 (Grand Power K100) has been a winner. Sometimes it doesn't--my Caracal was recalled. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 18, 2018, 01:48 AM	#43
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	The rotating barrel isn't a new idea but I think the Beretta PX4 Storm was innovative. It's a superb firearm. It's a cartridge as opposed to a gun but I like .327 Federal Magnum. When five or six rounds is the norm, an extra shot is great. It's also nice to get power levels between 9mm and .357 magnum with recoil more on par with .38 special. It's cool to see technology advancing cartridge design for wheel guns. I also like some of what I've been seeing with modern manufacturing and new copper solids. The Xtreme Penetrators from Lehigh, for instance, offer something new and actually interesting.

January 18, 2018, 02:04 AM	#44
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	Well, if we're gonna include ammunition in this discussion, I'm gonna have to toot the Polycase ammunition horn again. The blended copper/polymer bullet is really incredible when you consider it lowers recoil, yet is as damaging to the human body as a hollow point is, yet will never have failures to expand like a hollow point can or be a danger if, inconceivably, it overpenetrates. From 2 inch barrels to 20 inches, the Polycase is going to preform the same and its going to make magazines weigh a third less than what they do with normal ammunition. And the possibility that the range ammunition without the flutes might be as effective as the defense ammo with the flutes is in tumbling in the body makes my wallet giddy because I could practice with the same ammunition I use for defense. Oh, and in .38, .380, and 9mm it's very reasonably priced. Maybe not as cheap as steel case, but it is what it is. If Polycase wants to do something crazy, they should make the ammo in an aluminum case. With the polymer bullet, it would make the loaded cartridges so light they may actually float away! .327 is innovative? A longer case that holds more powder and has thicker walls isn't innovative, Dick Casull did it with .454 and people before him did it with .44 and .357 Magnum. I love .327, but not innovative. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

January 18, 2018, 07:52 AM	#46
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	No. Handguns are fairly mature technology. Consider the popularity and age of the 1911. These days, pretty much all innovation is in materials and manufacturing. Furthermore, innovative pistols tend to be fairly expensive, and risky since the high cost and unproven principals often result in discontinuation.

January 18, 2018, 08:12 AM	#47
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	I've been trying to place my finger on what innovative is. At first I wanted to note there is nothing innovative in pistols. But there is to some degree in my lifetime. Striker fired 10MM Rotating barrel The idea of a "bullpup" pistol where the magazine is in front of the chamber The list goes on awhile. My initial answer was "no I do not buy innovative" and yet I carry a striker fired pistol and have a bit of a crush on the 10MM round. So at some point I do buy "innovative." I thought about this a lot as I tried to put my finger on what innovative is and why I don't buy more innovative (or have not in the past) or if I am just wrong and actually do buy innovative. It then occurred to me... most of the time the innovators don't "make it" The best known striker fired pistols were not the first. 10MM in its infancy is best described as a failure. So if "innovative" means first to market with new technology I don't buy it. I let other companies find the flaws and adjust before considering innovative.

January 18, 2018, 10:54 AM	#50
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I was going to buy a model 40 Glock. I admit I want one. I have no real practical role for it that is not already filled. I was at a gun show with the cash to buy one. I left the show with a Colt Trooper Mk.III .357 mag with 6 inch barrel that is in as close to like new as one that I shoot will ever be. I still plan to get the Glock some day. It is just that a Colt in that condition at that price was too good of a deal for me to walk away from. I can always get the Glock from somewhere later on down the road. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.