expander problem ?

rebs · November 20, 2018, 02:17 PM

I am sizing some Lake Caty 5.56 brass and everything was going as usual when I started getting a few that were very very har5d to pull out of the die. The rest went as usual. Why would some size great and a few very hard to extract ?

arlaunch · November 20, 2018, 02:41 PM

I attribute the whole thing to work hardening of hard brass? Lake City is about the hardest brass you can get your hands on.

Likely incorrect....

Reloading them the 1st time i use whatever case lube i have on hand, & and graphite for inside the neck with satisfactory results. Graphite lube cleans up easy.

I have noticed much harder pulls back through the expander ball after the 2nd firing. For my 2nd firings and up i use whatever case lube i have on hand and Redding imperial wax only for the case neck. Then it goes smooth!

No matter which way you shake it, putting the expander in your electric drill and polishing it with emory cloth will help you out.

Forster and Redding dies won't lose much if any material. RCBS will. Be careful not to polish too much on RCBS balls.

Those hard pulls can, and will affect your accuracy. I normally chuck them if the pull is too hard.

You will find the Forster die to hardly ever pull hard no matter what. It has the least bearing surface of them all. (that i can tell anyway) Redding has the most.

I have not experienced to many hard pulls on 1X fired and first time reloaded LC

gwpercle · November 20, 2018, 04:49 PM

It's more than likely that Hawaiian thing... Lacka-Lube .

Make sure every case is well lubed , especially when resizing military cases .
I was resizing some 303 British military that the spray on lube failed miserably at... I had to resort to STP Oil treatment , a lube pad and rolling the cases across the pad for a even film . If the case starts to go into the die hard....STOP , back the case out and apply more lube . The spray on stuff is okay for light resizing and straight walled cases but for some jobs like military cases ...get some heavy duty good lube.
Gary

**Unclenick** · November 20, 2018, 04:53 PM

I assume by hard pull, you mean it is hard to back the case out of the die even before the expander gets involved. This is not too uncommon with once-fired brass. The stuff that comes out of full auto weapons or extra wide chambers often has a lot of extra spring-back.

rebs · November 20, 2018, 06:34 PM

the case backs out of the die perfect, it is the expander ball it get stuck on. It is once fired lake city. I have loaded a ton of once fired LC and this is the first time this has ever happened.

cw308 · November 20, 2018, 08:27 PM

I know it takes time but lube the inside of the necks with a Q-Tip and see if it makes a difference . How are you cleaning your brass .

rebs · November 20, 2018, 09:23 PM

I bought this brass as once fired, but now have my doubts. It was cleaned when I got it.
I normally clean mine in crushed walnut

cw308 · November 21, 2018, 10:44 AM

rebs
I wet tumble with SS Pins , does a nice job in removing everything brass looks brand new , you can see and problems with the brass , looking inside the brass it's like a mirror . Once fired brass may have been shot from larger and tight chambers , it's a crap shoot . After sizing and shooting in your rifle things may go smoother after the first go round .

You shoot alot more then me , I only benchrest get my brass from my shooting friend the shoots the same caliber , I get all his brass . Some sizes fine and some have more resistance sizing and when the expander ball goes through the neck , after firing in my rifle they all size and expand the neck just as smooth. I do lube the inside of the necks and wash off after .

I full size with the expander ball every time , I don't lock down the expander post , I leave little wiggle room to let the ball self center , works good for me . If you don't neck turn your brass stay with the expander ball . I forgot to ask , what dies are you using and for what action , semi or bolt .

mikld · November 21, 2018, 01:50 PM

Depends on the gun they were fired in the first time. Machine gun fired brass is often pretty big due to the "generous" chambers and forceful extraction/ejection. BTW, brass can be too clean. Clean, bare metal brass, often even lubed, can "drag" on dies. If the case neck ID is pristine, nekkid brass, the expander can be difficult to move through the neck...

cw308 · November 21, 2018, 02:31 PM

mikld
I hear that alot about clean brass , it could be I use 0000 steel wool sometimes after chamfering , my way of thinking the expander isn't rough its smooth and the inside of the case neck is smooth , it could be from the wool but that's after the sizing , maybe helps in the following resizing steps . I do lightly lube the inside of the necks and my sizing has very little resistance after the first reload . I'm sure alot of things come into play , even chamber size .

Chris

**44 AMP** · November 21, 2018, 02:34 PM

don't forget to clean the expander ball once in a while. Even with "clean" brass it's amazing how crud can build up...

**Unclenick** · November 21, 2018, 02:45 PM

Rebs,

Check that the expander is correctly located. If it gets too close to the neck portion of the die, withdrawing the case can be very difficult. If you have a Lee sizing die, check to be sure the collet at the top hasn't let the expander and decapper shaft slip upward.

If these cases were fired more than once, you could have an internal donut ring formed at the base of the neck. Multiple resizings will do that. If that happened, inside neck reaming will clear it. If the brass is springy from multiple reloadings, then you may have to anneal the necks and shoulders to get smooth resizing.

The only other suggestion I have is to use a sizing die that has a carbide expander ball. Just as with carbide pistol dies, the inherent slipperiness of brass on carbide makes operation easier and smoother and lets you skip inside neck lubrication (though it works even better if you use it).

T. O'Heir · November 21, 2018, 02:51 PM

Work hardening of brass takes repeated firing and resizing.
Expanders being hard to pull out of the die is normal. Lubing the inside of the case neck/mouth fixes it. Nothing fancy is required. Just screw the case mouths into your lube pad every 5th or so case. Or when it happens. No need to re-clean either.

**Unclenick** · November 21, 2018, 02:53 PM

T. O'Heir,

Did you read the part where he said this is a new problem he didn't normally have? Something is different that explains that.

cw308 · November 21, 2018, 03:05 PM

Then again it could be case thickness , the ones that are sizing rough , check to see if those cases are thicker at the case neck could be from .012 to .015 will definitely feel rougher . Just an after thought.

hdwhit · November 21, 2018, 03:31 PM

Quote:

rebs wrote:
I am sizing some Lake Caty 5.56 brass and everything was going as usual when I started getting a few that were very very har5d to pull out of the die. The rest went as usual. Why would some size great and a few very hard to extract ?

A few things that can cause variation in sizing force are:
* Inconsistent lubrication.
* Dimensional variance of the brass.
* Inside of case neck not lubricated.
* Inside of case neck dirty to varying degree.

mikld · November 21, 2018, 05:11 PM

Nope, nekkid, bare brass isn't necessarily slick/smooth. The term used is galling, bare brass against fairly bare/clean steel will "grab". Possible with any bare, clean metal against another (or same) metal can cause galling...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

rebs · November 21, 2018, 07:38 PM

The place I bought them from cleaned the outside of the case only not the inside.

cw308 · November 21, 2018, 07:53 PM

I would give all the brass I good cleaning , once you shoot them and start resizing I'm sure it will go much better . Don't sweat the small stuff just get out there and shoot it .Does make for a good talk though . Be Well .

Chris

rebs · November 22, 2018, 01:45 PM

Due to sizing before trimming could it be some cases are too far over length the the mouth is going too far into the die and being sized down too much ?

cw308 · November 22, 2018, 09:07 PM

The reason I size first is there is chamber measurements from base to end of case mouth , if the case neck is too long to will pinch the bullet in the chamber causeng pressure problems .On every type of case they have trim lengths for that reason . If you trim first then size the case length changes . It is easier to trim first because case mouth is wider allowing the pilot to enter easier , but your not going to get a accurate case length. Do you trim first before sizing?

Chris

rebs · November 23, 2018, 09:55 AM

Chris I size and then trim. The case will not go in the trimmer without being resized first. I use a fantastic Possum Hollow trimmer

F. Guffey · November 23, 2018, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Why would some size great and a few very hard to extract ?

What a great chance/opportunity to use the term "neck tension" and then there is me: if the neck of the case wants to keep the sizing ball/expander can anyone imagine how much bullet hold the neck has?

I have had cases make that sound; 'thoing' when the expander ball was pulled through the neck and while reloaders are using their imagination try to think about the neck pulling going on and the extra length that is being added to the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

F. Guffey

cw308 · November 23, 2018, 04:51 PM

rebs
Didn't know much about the Possum trimmer , looked it up and it looks like a nice trimmer . 30 years back when I got into reloading I bought the RCBS RockChucker Press and TrimPro case trimmer both have worked out well . When using brass on the thick side caused the pilot entering the case too tight causing a slight scratch inside the case mouth , just chucked it in the drill to smooth it down alittle helped solve the problem . Glad you trim after sizing . Be Well .
P.S.
Just came back from the emergency room , woke up with the room spinning an my right calf swollen . Turned out to be nothing , Vertigo and keeping a knee brace on too long after slamming it into a trailer hitch . CT Scan , blood work and sonogram of the groin and leg . Did scare the heck out of me but it was nothing . It's good talking to my forum friends , always makes me feel good . Thanks Again.

Chris

rebs · November 23, 2018, 05:53 PM

Chris
Glad to hear all is well and nothing serious wrong. Ya have to watch those trailer hitches lol

November 20, 2018, 02:17 PM	#1
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	expander problem ? I am sizing some Lake Caty 5.56 brass and everything was going as usual when I started getting a few that were very very har5d to pull out of the die. The rest went as usual. Why would some size great and a few very hard to extract ?

November 20, 2018, 04:53 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I assume by hard pull, you mean it is hard to back the case out of the die even before the expander gets involved. This is not too uncommon with once-fired brass. The stuff that comes out of full auto weapons or extra wide chambers often has a lot of extra spring-back. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 21, 2018, 10:44 AM	#8
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	rebs I wet tumble with SS Pins , does a nice job in removing everything brass looks brand new , you can see and problems with the brass , looking inside the brass it's like a mirror . Once fired brass may have been shot from larger and tight chambers , it's a crap shoot . After sizing and shooting in your rifle things may go smoother after the first go round . You shoot alot more then me , I only benchrest get my brass from my shooting friend the shoots the same caliber , I get all his brass . Some sizes fine and some have more resistance sizing and when the expander ball goes through the neck , after firing in my rifle they all size and expand the neck just as smooth. I do lube the inside of the necks and wash off after . I full size with the expander ball every time , I don't lock down the expander post , I leave little wiggle room to let the ball self center , works good for me . If you don't neck turn your brass stay with the expander ball . I forgot to ask , what dies are you using and for what action , semi or bolt . Last edited by cw308; November 21, 2018 at 02:31 PM.

November 21, 2018, 01:50 PM	#9
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Depends on the gun they were fired in the first time. Machine gun fired brass is often pretty big due to the "generous" chambers and forceful extraction/ejection. BTW, brass can be too clean. Clean, bare metal brass, often even lubed, can "drag" on dies. If the case neck ID is pristine, nekkid brass, the expander can be difficult to move through the neck... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

November 21, 2018, 02:34 PM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	don't forget to clean the expander ball once in a while. Even with "clean" brass it's amazing how crud can build up... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 20, 2018, 02:41 PM	#2
arlaunch Member Join Date: May 11, 2017 Posts: 28	I attribute the whole thing to work hardening of hard brass? Lake City is about the hardest brass you can get your hands on. Likely incorrect.... Reloading them the 1st time i use whatever case lube i have on hand, & and graphite for inside the neck with satisfactory results. Graphite lube cleans up easy. I have noticed much harder pulls back through the expander ball after the 2nd firing. For my 2nd firings and up i use whatever case lube i have on hand and Redding imperial wax only for the case neck. Then it goes smooth! No matter which way you shake it, putting the expander in your electric drill and polishing it with emory cloth will help you out. Forster and Redding dies won't lose much if any material. RCBS will. Be careful not to polish too much on RCBS balls. Those hard pulls can, and will affect your accuracy. I normally chuck them if the pull is too hard. You will find the Forster die to hardly ever pull hard no matter what. It has the least bearing surface of them all. (that i can tell anyway) Redding has the most. I have not experienced to many hard pulls on 1X fired and first time reloaded LC

November 20, 2018, 04:49 PM	#3
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	It's more than likely that Hawaiian thing... Lacka-Lube . Make sure every case is well lubed , especially when resizing military cases . I was resizing some 303 British military that the spray on lube failed miserably at... I had to resort to STP Oil treatment , a lube pad and rolling the cases across the pad for a even film . If the case starts to go into the die hard....STOP , back the case out and apply more lube . The spray on stuff is okay for light resizing and straight walled cases but for some jobs like military cases ...get some heavy duty good lube. Gary

November 20, 2018, 06:34 PM	#5
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	the case backs out of the die perfect, it is the expander ball it get stuck on. It is once fired lake city. I have loaded a ton of once fired LC and this is the first time this has ever happened.

November 20, 2018, 08:27 PM	#6
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I know it takes time but lube the inside of the necks with a Q-Tip and see if it makes a difference . How are you cleaning your brass .

November 20, 2018, 09:23 PM	#7
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I bought this brass as once fired, but now have my doubts. It was cleaned when I got it. I normally clean mine in crushed walnut

November 21, 2018, 02:31 PM	#10
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	mikld I hear that alot about clean brass , it could be I use 0000 steel wool sometimes after chamfering , my way of thinking the expander isn't rough its smooth and the inside of the case neck is smooth , it could be from the wool but that's after the sizing , maybe helps in the following resizing steps . I do lightly lube the inside of the necks and my sizing has very little resistance after the first reload . I'm sure alot of things come into play , even chamber size . Chris

November 21, 2018, 02:45 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Rebs, Check that the expander is correctly located. If it gets too close to the neck portion of the die, withdrawing the case can be very difficult. If you have a Lee sizing die, check to be sure the collet at the top hasn't let the expander and decapper shaft slip upward. If these cases were fired more than once, you could have an internal donut ring formed at the base of the neck. Multiple resizings will do that. If that happened, inside neck reaming will clear it. If the brass is springy from multiple reloadings, then you may have to anneal the necks and shoulders to get smooth resizing. The only other suggestion I have is to use a sizing die that has a carbide expander ball. Just as with carbide pistol dies, the inherent slipperiness of brass on carbide makes operation easier and smoother and lets you skip inside neck lubrication (though it works even better if you use it). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 21, 2018, 02:51 PM	#13
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Work hardening of brass takes repeated firing and resizing. Expanders being hard to pull out of the die is normal. Lubing the inside of the case neck/mouth fixes it. Nothing fancy is required. Just screw the case mouths into your lube pad every 5th or so case. Or when it happens. No need to re-clean either. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 21, 2018, 02:53 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	T. O'Heir, Did you read the part where he said this is a new problem he didn't normally have? Something is different that explains that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 21, 2018, 03:05 PM	#15
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Then again it could be case thickness , the ones that are sizing rough , check to see if those cases are thicker at the case neck could be from .012 to .015 will definitely feel rougher . Just an after thought.

November 21, 2018, 05:11 PM	#17
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Nope, nekkid, bare brass isn't necessarily slick/smooth. The term used is galling, bare brass against fairly bare/clean steel will "grab". Possible with any bare, clean metal against another (or same) metal can cause galling... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

November 21, 2018, 07:38 PM	#18
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	The place I bought them from cleaned the outside of the case only not the inside.

November 21, 2018, 07:53 PM	#19
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I would give all the brass I good cleaning , once you shoot them and start resizing I'm sure it will go much better . Don't sweat the small stuff just get out there and shoot it .Does make for a good talk though . Be Well . Chris

November 22, 2018, 01:45 PM	#20
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	Due to sizing before trimming could it be some cases are too far over length the the mouth is going too far into the die and being sized down too much ?

November 22, 2018, 09:07 PM	#21
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	The reason I size first is there is chamber measurements from base to end of case mouth , if the case neck is too long to will pinch the bullet in the chamber causeng pressure problems .On every type of case they have trim lengths for that reason . If you trim first then size the case length changes . It is easier to trim first because case mouth is wider allowing the pilot to enter easier , but your not going to get a accurate case length. Do you trim first before sizing? Chris

November 23, 2018, 09:55 AM	#22
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	Chris I size and then trim. The case will not go in the trimmer without being resized first. I use a fantastic Possum Hollow trimmer

November 23, 2018, 04:51 PM	#24
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	rebs Didn't know much about the Possum trimmer , looked it up and it looks like a nice trimmer . 30 years back when I got into reloading I bought the RCBS RockChucker Press and TrimPro case trimmer both have worked out well . When using brass on the thick side caused the pilot entering the case too tight causing a slight scratch inside the case mouth , just chucked it in the drill to smooth it down alittle helped solve the problem . Glad you trim after sizing . Be Well . P.S. Just came back from the emergency room , woke up with the room spinning an my right calf swollen . Turned out to be nothing , Vertigo and keeping a knee brace on too long after slamming it into a trailer hitch . CT Scan , blood work and sonogram of the groin and leg . Did scare the heck out of me but it was nothing . It's good talking to my forum friends , always makes me feel good . Thanks Again. Chris

November 23, 2018, 05:53 PM	#25
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	Chris Glad to hear all is well and nothing serious wrong. Ya have to watch those trailer hitches lol