AK VS AR

[darkgael]

That group at 1.66” is fine shooting from an AK. It is a lot larger than one can expect from a decent AR; nevertheless, it does show that not every AK will produce shotgun patterns.
Good for you.

rom what i was always told was that the ak is a very reliable gun it can be thrown through hell and brought back and still fire a round. A big plus would be that the gun can be dragged through mud and sand and still shoot you brake the damn stock off and still fire it!

That is the common story. Probably true. My first thought when i read that story here in the USA in the comfort of my living room is “how often do you plan to do the hell and back mud and sand routine?” Every single AK that I have seen has been at the range.
I have a Colt AR that has mutiple 1000 round counts. I have had a single (1) malfunction, handloaded ammo related.
Pete

[ROCK6]

Love this never-ending debate; but I've ended for me...get a few of both





When you start talking about "modern sporting rifles", what sports do you have in mind? You will be more satisfied punching holes with an AR that offers more choices to accurize. That said, if you really like the AK platform, some Krebs and Arsenal models are more than capable to being more accurate than most shooters (my Arsenal is just as accurate as my best AR out to about 200 meters).

Ergonomics often goes to the AR family as well, and as mentioned, there are more accessories available than the latest Barbie doll model!

As long as you're getting from a reputable maker/manufacturer, reliability is pretty much a dead even. I've taken classes with both AK and AR and the outcomes were quite similar (a little faster times with the AR). If you want to go hunting in states that require .30 caliber or larger, both offer that option, but the AK will likely be cheaper to run.

I train and use an AR far more often than my AKs, but I still like "familiarization" day with the commie-guns and they are fun to substitute in a course from time to time. Choices are good, which is why I ended up with a few of each

ROCK6

[stagpanther]

Have a sniper friend who "relieved" a couple of dragonovs from their former owners--says they are quite the weapon and cause lots of grief.

[stagpanther]

All this talk about AK's has motivated me to throw some handloads together of some "blemished" sst's that I got from midway at a super price. Figured they may work better in my PSAK which is also a blemish (though I never could figure out where the blemish was).

[Road_Clam]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

All this talk about AK's has motivated me to throw some handloads together of some "blemished" sst's that I got from midway at a super price.

Too funny, I bought 1K of the same bullets years ago. Have not yet tested. Trying not to dig too deep, too frequently into my x39 inventory. Got some 4198 and R7 just calling for the task.

[stagpanther]

Too funny, I bought 1K of the same bullets years ago. Have not yet tested. Trying not to dig too deep, too frequently into my x39 inventory. Got some 4198 and R7 just calling for the task.

Oddly enough--what little shooting I've done with them they have proved to be top groupers. Regretfully I only bought a couple hundred--wish I had bought more. The loads I'm about to test are driven by RL7

[ilmonster]

To the OP, for the purposes you describe (range time with family, poop hits the fan use, home defense, etc.), I would pick the AR-15. Mind you, I have both a BCM mid-length 16" AR and also a WASR AK. They are both fun, reliable rifles that can be fed with inexpensive ammo ($300 per 1K .223/5.56 and $210 per 1K for 7.62). As far as AR reliability, as long as you keep then lubricated (google "Filthy 14"), they kind of run forever. Yes, an AK-47 can be run by a conscript child, and maintained with a shoe lace, goat fat and spit, but I expect never to be in that situation. And here in the US of A, parts for AR's are pretty much ubiquitous. Of the two I own, if I had to choose only one, I choose my BCM AR. Thankfully, I am able to own both!

[pblanc]

If you are considering possibly using a carbine for self-defense, you might give some thought to the ease of use of the AR versus the AK platform.

It matters little if you are only shooting at the range, but if you need to operate the gun quickly and under pressure I have always found the layout of the controls on the AK to be awkward. You mentioned accessing the safety/selector switch. Some people with long fingers can do this with their middle finger without releasing their hold on the pistol grip and others cannot. Also, you can not charge the chamber without disengaging the safety lever. So if you want to carry the gun ready for use with a round chambered and the safety engaged, you must first insert a loaded magazine, disengage the safety, rack the bolt, and re-engage the safety.

There is no empty magazine bolt hold open on the AK. In fact, unless you modify the selector switch or buy an aftermarket switch with a notch cut in it to hold the charging handle, you can't hold the bolt open at all. So to charge a round after changing an empty magazine for a loaded one, you need to pull the charging handle all the way back and release it. That is a bit awkward for a right-handed shooter because the handle is on the right side. To operate it with your left hand, you must either rotate the carbine 90 degrees counterclockwise and come over the gun, or you must come under the gun and operate the charging handle with your left thumb, which is easier said than done. Most AR operators will be able to tell by feel and sound cues when the bolt has locked back on an empty magazine. With an AK the first clue that the magazine is empty is usually when you pull the trigger and the gun goes "click".

The magazine release latch is also awkwardly located for access by the strong hand. Some people say they can release it with the index finger of the shooting hand. I cannot do so without releasing my hold on the pistol grip. Even if you can do so, due to the "rock in and out" design of the AK magazines, empty magazines do not drop free (usually). So you cannot release and drop an empty magazine with one hand while reaching for a full magazine with the other. You usually have to release and strip the magazine with the support hand, then use the same hand to grab and load a fresh magazine.

With the AR platform the thing that I like the least is the design of the charging handle which I have always found a little awkward to use. But at least it can be accessed quickly with either hand and many aftermarket charging handles with larger and ambidextrous release levers are available to make it easier. The AR has a last round bolt hold open. The magazine release button is very conveniently located for a right-handed shooter. Empty magazines will usually drop free, so you can drop an empty with your right hand while reaching for a loaded one with your left. After changing the magazine the bolt can be quickly and easily released to charge the chamber with the left hand with no need to pull the charging handle back.

The selector switch is much better placed on the AR than the AK and if you are a lefty, ambidextrous selector switches are widely available.

All of the shortcomings of the AK control layout can be addressed by training to some extent but the operation of the AK for most people will probably never be as rapid or intuitive as that of the AR.

[Sharkbite]

All of the shortcomings of the AK control layout can be addressed by training to some extent but the operation of the AK for most people will probably never be as rapid or intuitive as that of the AR.

With training and PRACTICE the AK can be used very well. Youtube some AK vids and look at the pros run an AK. That being said, im an AR guy when given the choice. For SHTF Times, the availibity of AR mags and ammo EVERYWHERE wins th arguement for me.

[ilmonster]

Agree with everything Pblanc said. I have long, skinny fingers and it is still a reach to hit the WASR safety lever. Plus, most AK's have a pretty stiff safety lever until broken in or bent a little bit. Fun range toy for me, but I still choose the AR if limited to only one.

[Ignition Override]

pblanc:
This is not to suggest that the AKs have any clear advantages over ARs in typical US civilian settings. I'm neither a combat veteran, nor expert on Any type of gun, nor a keyboard commando.

Just a note that practiced techniques (for a lefty) of lifting the gun with the left hand on the pistol grip, while using the right hand's thumb to move the safety lever downwards seems to work pretty well.
Everybody here remembers (?) -- or some prefer to ignore -- that the weird safety levers are designed to be used with thick winter gloves.

As for AK mag changes, numerous guys on YouTube hold a spare mag in their hand and in one fairly smooth, well-practiced motion, they use the Top edge of the spare magazine to push forward on the magazine release lever, while then pushing the rifle's empty magazine forward, which falls.
YouTube makes it look easier than any words.

[stagpanther]

The AK is also a piston operated gun as opposed to (predominatly) direct impingement for most AR's. That is a clear advantage in my opinion. The stubby x 39 cartridge "does what it's supposed to at closer range"--but the overall ballistics advantage and versatility goes to the AR cartridge IMO. I prefer AR's for their modularity and ease of modification--but if "doomsday apocalypse survivalist out in the middle of nowhere" was a significant concern I'd make sure I had one AK around with plenty of ammo. Brutally simple and effective--they simply go and aren't too picky about what you feed them. My PSAK (arguably not a "real" comblock style AK) came with a gritty trigger with about a 6 to 6.5 lb pull. I bought a lower pull aftermarket trigger but found that I didn't like it any better, nor did I manage to shoot the gun any better, so I reinstalled the original trigger--there's something oddly appealing about the primitive "barbed wire" trigger spring.

The real answer, of course, is get both.

[Road_Clam]

Originally Posted by Ignition Override

As for mag changes, numerous guys on YouTube hold a spare mag in their hand and in one fairly smooth, well-practiced motion, they use the Top edge of the spare magazine to push forward on the magazine release lever, while then pushing the rifle's empty magazine forward, which falls.
YouTube makes it look easier than any words.

Agreed, I still struggle with a single, proficient attempt mag change. It's a bit challenging as there's a lot of firm tension on the mag release lever (at least my Opap is stiff). Sometimes takes me a few tries.

[pblanc]

Originally Posted by Road_Clam

Agreed, I still struggle with a single, proficient attempt mag change. It's a bit challenging as there's a lot of firm tension on the mag release lever (at least my Opap is stiff). Sometimes takes me a few tries.

Yes, I have seen the AK quick mag change drill. Obviously, some people seem to be able to do it extremely well, including the kid in the video below. But it still seems to me to be a fine motor control skill that requires a good deal of practice to hone, and one that could easily degrade under high stress or in dark conditions. And even if done very well, I think it will inevitably still be slower to do an emergency magazine change on an AK than an AR.

With the AR, just drop the empty with the right index finger while simultaneously grabbing the loaded mag, slam the mag home and slap the bolt release which is right there above the the magazine well, no need to cycle the charging handle, and no real need for fine motor control.

Just a point to consider if one is choosing between the AK and AR for a self-defense carbine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov5py7nOVng

[davidsog]

With the AR, just drop the empty with the right index finger while simultaneously grabbing the loaded mag, slam the mag home and slap the bolt release which is right there above the the magazine well, no need to cycle the charging handle, and no real need for fine motor control.

And one in ten times the bolt fails to lock to the rear causing the operator to go into a wiggle dance..

Seriously, this is all why you transition in the house. The only time I practiced magazine changes under fire was in the infantry, even then it is under cover.

Changing magazines in a room still under dispute is a death sentence. It looks cool on youtube though.

[agtman]

With the AR, just drop the empty with the right index finger while simultaneously grabbing the loaded mag, slam the mag home and slap the bolt release which is right there above the the magazine well, no need to cycle the charging handle, and no real need for fine motor control.

Yep, as long as you practice doing it, your AR mags changes can be as fast and as smooth as Travis Haley's without fumbling-frickin' them up.

And you didn't have to spend a tour or two in the Sand Box to learn how to achieve "operator fluidity."

Just a point to consider if one is choosing between the AK and AR for a self-defense carbine.

Huh?

Dude, there's no hard choice there. It's a properly set-up 5.56 AR carbine - all day 24/7/365.

AKs are overrated Hollywood action-movie props.

[rickyrick]

Anyone living where you have laws limiting magazine capacity should probably practice changing mags. Lol

But in all seriousness, I’ve never owned or used an AK, so I couldn’t say which would be better.
But the weapon that you can operate most efficiently should be your first choice.
I’ll add that you can’t beat the prices of the AR market right now.

[agtman]

* * * But the weapon that you can operate most efficiently should be your first choice. I’ll add that you can’t beat the prices of the AR market right now.

That's true about AR prices right now, as we're in the middle of the so-called 'Trump Slump' on the firearms market.

Everybody feels safe, so nothing's moving and prices have dropped dramatically. On ammo as well ...

But you might want to listen to what Clint Smith said in 2017 about buying 'cheap' ARs or 'parts-gun' ARs.

Are you really saving money? ... Or are you just risking your life and those who depend on you?

Just FYI:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ejWo_bpUA

[davidsog]

And you didn't have to spend a tour or two in the Sand Box to learn how to achieve "operator fluidity."

Why does the "tacticool" world think this is even an issue? The first thing you do if you run out of ammo is seek cover UNLESS you're doing CQB....

In that case, you transition to your secondary to get a working gun in the fight. In fact, you never work on your long-gun for any reason in the fight. If it goes down, you drop it and go to your secondary. If it is just your unlucky day and your secondary goes down...you move out of the fight and your team covers down while you seek cover to fix yourself and get back into the fight. You do not stand there doing cool dance moves.

I cannot image a guy moving to his point of domination and doing some silly "tacticool" dance with his long gun.

I certainly hope no police departments practice this stupidity and certainly no homeowner thinking its going to make his home defense better. You are practicing to violate the very first principle and ONLY thing that will save your life if you find yourself in a gunfight without a gun.

SEEK COVER

Now that is not say do not practice a manual of arms. That demonstrates individual proficiency but practice it multiple positions that reflect real world conditions. Prone, kneeling, or standing BEHIND cover but do not train yourself to stand there imitating an E-type silhouette.

Having used both an AR and AK....I would choose the AR BUT use the one you are most familiar with and have trained on.

[rickyrick]

I solve that issue by only carrying one mag. If the first one doesn’t do the trick or somehow fails, then I accept my fate.
All of my attempts will be focused on removing myself from danger. There’s no cover in most regular ol’ folk’s houses that can stop bullets, that’s movie magic.
When I had my own range I experimented with pretty much all materials used in household interiors and I found nothing that would provide cover... only concealment.

I must add that I’m not going to leave a loaded rifle just laying around for home defense, impractical and illegal in many places. So I have a pistol.

I realize that some citizens are do not have the right to own a pistol and have to resort to using long guns. It’s hard to load the dishwasher wearing an AR and a rig full of magazines.