Point of diminishing returns on the range? - Page 2

Sleuth · October 7, 2011, 12:32 PM

Keith remarked in his autobiography that he left the ranch every day with 100 rounds of ammo, and came back every day with 100 rounds of brass. No people in the area to worry about, he could shoot in every direction at anything he wanted. Now, THAT develops long range skills!

C0untZer0 · October 8, 2011, 08:24 PM

I actually left the range a little early today. I had a shot group at 25' that I was really happy with, I had maybe 5 more minutes of range time, but I wanted to end it on an up note so I just called it a day.

C0untZer0 · October 8, 2011, 09:24 PM

Something else I did today was only have 5 rounds in my pistol at a time.

Previously I was filling up the mags with 17 rounds, and man there were times when it was tiring to hold that pistol out there.

This trip I only had five rounds in the magazine max, and I got much less fatigued.

I also brought a sweat band, I looked like a dork but I didn't have to wipe down my glasses, or wipe sweat out of my eyes.

federali · October 8, 2011, 09:37 PM

You didn't mention what you were shooting. While you may have become fatigued, what you describe is the same symptoms of a gun barrel leading up when lead bullets are a bit too soft for the velocities they're being pushed.

No that I have a bit of tremor in my shooting arm, I find that about 25-30 rounds to be my limit. Once the tremor awakens, I can't even shoot a .22 accurately. As I'm a better than average weak hand shooter, I sometimes "use up" my strong arm, then continue shooting left handed.

C0untZer0 · October 8, 2011, 09:55 PM

I was shooting 9mm FMJs. The real copper jacketed American bullets, not the slavic copper washed ones...

My barrel doesn't have any lead in it. It doesn't even have traces of copper yet ...

But I guess you were aiming your comments at the OP.

insomni · October 8, 2011, 11:53 PM

I only fire US made rounds.
I tried those craptacular TulAmmo rounds, and.... no. just no man. You can't hit a damn thing with those.

I usually get good deals on Remington UMC, sometimes whatever Federal or Winchester I can find a deal on. I like to know that the accuracy problems are me, and not my ammo.

C0untZer0 · October 9, 2011, 01:25 AM

Well - having ammo that is inherently innaccurate - you're at the point of diminishing returns right out of the starting gate.

That's going to ruin your day

Especially if you don't recognize it's the ammo and you just keep trying harder and harder...

MW surveyor · October 9, 2011, 01:54 PM

There is a point where I no longer can either see the target well enough to go for consistent groups or I'm generally fatigued when I shoot more than 2 hours. So now I take breaks, sometimes lasting up to 1/2 hour and usually load only 5 rounds in one mag of the 9 mm or 45.

Been lucky with the ammo part since I started reloading and found what each of my pistols like the best. Anyhow, usually don't shoot any more than 100 rounds of either the 9 or 45 and this also includes my 38/357. The 22 get shot a bit more but no more than 200 rounds at a time.

m&p45acp10+1 · October 9, 2011, 04:13 PM

I just take lots of breaks, and hang out for a while. If my accuracy is going to pot it is because I am shooting fast, and have abandoned principles of shooting for tight groups. I do practice instinct shooting and at that time I am not going for the 10 ring. Minute of torso is just fine with me in that case.

Nnobby45 · October 9, 2011, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Just wondering if anyone else had any insight into the point of diminishing returns, like how to get through it without leaving the range all ****** off, or how to know when to pack it in for the day.

Always looked at the range as a way to train. Even when breaking in a new gun, I work it out doing a variety of stuff. Even on the indoor range it's easy to practice different distances and shot strings----rapid fire, dbl. tap, two warning shots to the torso and one up higher

, etc.

When you get tired to the point where you can't shoot accurately, you're no longer training.

Vermonter · October 10, 2011, 01:27 PM

Let's Use a few other sports as an example and then I will circle back to my point.

Flyfishing......I can practice with my orvis for hours to hone that perfect cast. I can go out and cast perfectly and catch no fish. I can also throw what looks to be terrible and end up having something for the grill that day.

Archery........I am not a competition archer I simply do it to spend more time in the deer woods. I recently switched targets from a Bullseye target to a 3d deer target. Magically I realized that while not always the prettiest groups 95% of the arrows that leave my bow will cleanly Kill a deer. The other 5% miss entirely which is just as well because I would rather Kill or miss no wounded animals.

As for pistol shooting I have one purpose for even owning one much less shooting one and that is personal defense. I like to get myself tired and still hit within the 8 ring because to me that translates to how I will shoot if startled, tired, adrenaline rush, or most likely shooting quickly and hope the fundamentals fall into place. The trick is if you can keep those fundamentals when tired or uncomfortable than they should become reality when the situation warrants.

Thanks, Vermonter

October 7, 2011, 12:32 PM	#26
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	Keith remarked in his autobiography that he left the ranch every day with 100 rounds of ammo, and came back every day with 100 rounds of brass. No people in the area to worry about, he could shoot in every direction at anything he wanted. Now, THAT develops long range skills! __________________ Sleuth

October 8, 2011, 09:37 PM	#29
federali Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2011 Location: Nassau County NY Posts: 378	Leading? You didn't mention what you were shooting. While you may have become fatigued, what you describe is the same symptoms of a gun barrel leading up when lead bullets are a bit too soft for the velocities they're being pushed. No that I have a bit of tremor in my shooting arm, I find that about 25-30 rounds to be my limit. Once the tremor awakens, I can't even shoot a .22 accurately. As I'm a better than average weak hand shooter, I sometimes "use up" my strong arm, then continue shooting left handed. __________________ Int'l Assoc. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors

October 9, 2011, 04:13 PM	#34
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I just take lots of breaks, and hang out for a while. If my accuracy is going to pot it is because I am shooting fast, and have abandoned principles of shooting for tight groups. I do practice instinct shooting and at that time I am not going for the 10 ring. Minute of torso is just fine with me in that case. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

October 10, 2011, 01:27 PM	#36
Vermonter Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2010 Posts: 962	I look at it a bit differently Let's Use a few other sports as an example and then I will circle back to my point. Flyfishing......I can practice with my orvis for hours to hone that perfect cast. I can go out and cast perfectly and catch no fish. I can also throw what looks to be terrible and end up having something for the grill that day. Archery........I am not a competition archer I simply do it to spend more time in the deer woods. I recently switched targets from a Bullseye target to a 3d deer target. Magically I realized that while not always the prettiest groups 95% of the arrows that leave my bow will cleanly Kill a deer. The other 5% miss entirely which is just as well because I would rather Kill or miss no wounded animals. As for pistol shooting I have one purpose for even owning one much less shooting one and that is personal defense. I like to get myself tired and still hit within the 8 ring because to me that translates to how I will shoot if startled, tired, adrenaline rush, or most likely shooting quickly and hope the fundamentals fall into place. The trick is if you can keep those fundamentals when tired or uncomfortable than they should become reality when the situation warrants. Thanks, Vermonter

October 8, 2011, 08:24 PM	#27
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I actually left the range a little early today. I had a shot group at 25' that I was really happy with, I had maybe 5 more minutes of range time, but I wanted to end it on an up note so I just called it a day.

October 8, 2011, 09:24 PM	#28
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Something else I did today was only have 5 rounds in my pistol at a time. Previously I was filling up the mags with 17 rounds, and man there were times when it was tiring to hold that pistol out there. This trip I only had five rounds in the magazine max, and I got much less fatigued. I also brought a sweat band, I looked like a dork but I didn't have to wipe down my glasses, or wipe sweat out of my eyes.

October 8, 2011, 09:55 PM	#30
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I was shooting 9mm FMJs. The real copper jacketed American bullets, not the slavic copper washed ones... My barrel doesn't have any lead in it. It doesn't even have traces of copper yet ... But I guess you were aiming your comments at the OP.

October 8, 2011, 11:53 PM	#31
insomni Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2011 Posts: 342	I only fire US made rounds. I tried those craptacular TulAmmo rounds, and.... no. just no man. You can't hit a damn thing with those. I usually get good deals on Remington UMC, sometimes whatever Federal or Winchester I can find a deal on. I like to know that the accuracy problems are me, and not my ammo.

October 9, 2011, 01:25 AM	#32
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Well - having ammo that is inherently innaccurate - you're at the point of diminishing returns right out of the starting gate. That's going to ruin your day Especially if you don't recognize it's the ammo and you just keep trying harder and harder...

October 9, 2011, 01:54 PM	#33
MW surveyor Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 212	There is a point where I no longer can either see the target well enough to go for consistent groups or I'm generally fatigued when I shoot more than 2 hours. So now I take breaks, sometimes lasting up to 1/2 hour and usually load only 5 rounds in one mag of the 9 mm or 45. Been lucky with the ammo part since I started reloading and found what each of my pistols like the best. Anyhow, usually don't shoot any more than 100 rounds of either the 9 or 45 and this also includes my 38/357. The 22 get shot a bit more but no more than 200 rounds at a time.