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March 12, 2013, 09:25 AM | #26 |
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Having coached Jr. Rifle and sent my daughters...
through beginning rifle and hunter safety.
The first should be a basic firearms training course, either hunter safety or beginning rifle / pistol course. Here you will get the safety lessons and principals of sight alignment and trigger control and breathing. When the person is comfortable with the firearm of choice, then try standardized course of fire; e.g.: bulleyes shooting, bowling pins, silhouette, etc. The they should consider advance training courses within local area. Best to "Keep it super simple" for starting. |
March 12, 2013, 10:19 AM | #27 |
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Seeker two,
I have a serious issue with anyone who would say that if someone hasn't been trained then they shouldn't own a firearm. I do recommend training to others, and have received thousands of dollars worth of training myself. The REQUIREMENT is being intelligent enough to earn enough money to buy one through legal channels.
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March 12, 2013, 10:56 AM | #28 |
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I strongly recommend starting with the NRA Home Firearm Safety course, then the pistol course, then go from there.
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March 13, 2013, 02:59 AM | #29 |
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Legally none.
Personally, I would have a hard time trusting someone who regularly carries a gun if they can't fire it, have poor muzzle discipline, don't know the mechanics of the safety/action, etc. let alone the legal background. Just like I wouldn't trust an unpracticed driver to take me somewhere in a stick they didn't know how to work without knowledge of traffic laws. |
March 13, 2013, 09:46 AM | #30 |
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Three principles:
Those are my foundational principles. Taken together, they mean I am not a fan of any type of legally-required training under any circumstances whatsoever. Now, with that said, guns actually do require some level of knowledge & skill in order to be used effectively for self defense. On a practical level, if you're not going to learn how to use the tool, it does not do you much good to own one. You end up with a false level of confidence that isn't congruent with reality. Still your right. Just a waste of money that leads to false confidence, like spending $500 for a fancy rabbit's foot. pax |
March 13, 2013, 11:16 AM | #31 | |
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As Jeff Cooper used to say:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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March 13, 2013, 12:59 PM | #32 |
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This is foreign territory to me. I've used a firearm since I was 12 and carried a firearm almost continuously for most of my adult life. For me, it's no different than putting on clothes or brushing my teeth.
I have 2 DIL who weren't raised in a gun packing/hunting environment. They're not anti-gun or afraid of firearms-they just don't have the experience to be comfortable,YET. I've also met several nonshooters and gave them the opportunity to change their misinformed status. In the current round of maniacal buying, I've got to say there are many people who now own firearms w/o the knowledge required to safely handle those tools. On the other hand, there are folks who own cars w/o knowing how to drive but they ARE required to display knowledge and skill before being allowed to legally drive on public roads. I can only hope that those inexperienced gun owners make some effort to learn how to safely manage their new equipment before we see a rise in accidents. Such accidents would/will no doubt be used as leverage against us later. |
March 13, 2013, 01:11 PM | #33 |
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Own VS Use
Being compentant has noting to do with your right to own a firearm. I know people who own firearms that have zero traiing. They are family airlooms and as such never see a simgle round of ammo.
I lso know people who own firearms and have no formal SD training of any sort. I call them hunters. They all had to take and pass hunters safety to hunt legally and I am ok with that as well. What worries me to a degree are those folkls who decide to get a firearm to defend life and limb and never seek professional training. Much of my professionl training came from friends and family in law enforcment and military. That as vaueale a evntuly led to me seeking out other profesonal course. The other mediums that you reccomend are all valuable as well. Books, forums, videos, magizines, and the like all have their place. In the end there is no substitute for the real thing (training that is god forid we ever have to do the real real thing!) Many states require traininig prior to allowing someone to carry their firearm. But requireing them to pass training prior to ownership is a different story entirely. Regars, Vermonter |
March 14, 2013, 09:23 AM | #34 | |
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Related: I've worked with a lot of people who "grew up around guns" and did not know a thing about self-defense. Or about safely handling guns, for that matter.
Here's an article from Tom Givens on that subject. He worded things more harshly than I would have, but I do agree with the premise -- which is that a lot of people simply do not know what they don't know, and thus are not as safe (or as prepared to protect themselves) as they think they are. "Heck, I Grew Up Around Guns" by Tom Givens. Quote:
Read the whole thing. pax |
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March 14, 2013, 10:02 AM | #35 |
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To go along with the general trend here, I would like to state that all training isn't created equal. Military training included.
Some of the more egregious exampls of poor firearms handling I've seen came from the boys and girls in out S-1 and S-2 shops who got all the training they "needed" at Ft. Jackson. Issues of trigger discipline, muzzle discipline, weapon security etc. abounded with those guys and girls, who were supposedly trained. I'm very pro-training, but anti-government mandated training. I think the best firearms training, safe gun handling wise, I ever got was when I took the rifle merit badge as a Boy Scout. And that curriculum was written in part by the NRA.
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March 14, 2013, 10:10 AM | #36 |
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Response to the Tom Givens cite (I know he hasn't directly posted here).
First: I believe in training; it's the responsible thing to do if you own/use anything with any complexity in design, function, or use. I believe in responsibility. There are a lot of great ideas in this thread. But: Gee, Tom… Too bad there's not something like "lane-side manner". Way to alienate a whole bunch of people who might otherwise happily take a training class. Labeling everyone who grew up around guns and has the temerity to mention it in your presence "…ignorant and stupid…" can be seen as…well, ignorant. IGUAG and I have also received some training over the years. I'm sure I'm not as well trained as I would like to be; I'm not as well-trained as some would like me to be; I'm sure that I'm not trained well enough to even own a gun by some people's standards. Tough. I am what I am. I will continue to seek training when I can do so. I will not willingly train with anyone who comes across as an elitist know-it-all with contempt for my level of ignorance (maybe, "inexperience" would be a more marketable term). I don't know you, Tom, and you may be a really nice guy who really knows your stuff. However, based on your epistle cited in this thread, I would likely seek my training from someone who is less openly contemptuous of my inexperience. Have a great day, Best, Will
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March 14, 2013, 10:27 AM | #37 |
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Will,
I do agree it was worded more hashly than I would have preferred. Posted it because of the message that a lot of people think they're safer than they really are -- not because I agree with the harshness there. pax |
March 14, 2013, 10:40 AM | #38 |
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Yes, it's a bit harsh, but it makes an important point very concisely -- and he's speaking in general, not to any one individual. I'd bet money that when Mr. Givens is actually "counseling" these guys, he doesn't start out by telling them they're ignorant and stupid...
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March 14, 2013, 11:57 AM | #39 |
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And the bottom line is that safe gun handling, the fundamentals of marksmanship, the array of skills to effectively use a firearm defensively in an unpredictable, dynamic, violent event, and the knowledge to appropriately make a decision to resort to lethal force are neither instinctive nor intuitive. Such skills and knowledge need to be learned.
Someone having "grown up around guns" is no guarantee that he (or she) has learned all, or even some, of it.
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March 14, 2013, 12:08 PM | #40 | |
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Quote:
My only point was that my feelings were bruised by the implication that someone having "grown up around guns" is a guarantee of ignorance and stupidity. I think, like "enough money", there's no such thing as "enough training". No one is so skilled that nothing more can be gained or trained. It's just counterproductive for any of us to denigrate those we think have need of more. Best, Will
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March 14, 2013, 04:34 PM | #41 | |
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Quote:
Sooooo maybe a short class on how to unload and load the thing and stay safe would be a good thing? Or if the person bought the gun read the manual.... |
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March 15, 2013, 11:50 AM | #42 |
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My opinion is that practice is better than no practice, even if your habits are less than perfect and your accuracy suffers because of it.
Not only does training make you a better shooter, it also makes the use of a gun more instinctive and natural. I have found at any range, folks are ready and willing to help if asked. The nightmare of having to defend yourself and your family is bad enough, but if an unintended person is wounded or killed, obviously your plan or lack of plan was flawed or poorly executed. Accidents happen, some are more serious than others, but most can be reduced if practice is frequent. But a defensive and survivor mindset is more important to arrive at before a weapon is chosen. For the gals out there, don't forget www.corneredcat.com. |
March 16, 2013, 01:20 PM | #43 | |
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Quote:
There should be absolutely no requirement for any training whatsoever in order to own a firearm. And training itself cannot replace intelligence... A trained idiot with a gun is going to be more dangerous than an untrained smart person with a gun. |
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March 16, 2013, 02:35 PM | #45 |
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You don't have to have a driver's license to OWN a motor vehicle, you must HAVE one to OPERATE a motor vehicle on PUBLIC roads.
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March 16, 2013, 03:44 PM | #46 |
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I enjoy training, in general, and think it is a very good idea. I recommend training with good instructors when time and finances permit.
I do NOT support mandatory training, at all. As has been noted by others in this thread, and by me in several other threads, mandatory training requirements can pose the following challenges: 1) A state or municipality that does not support RKBA can deliberately create onerous training requirements, to keep most people from even trying; 2) Even if a state or municipality operates in good faith - a) Some people can't afford to pay for the class(es); b) Some people won't be able to attend classes, depending upon availability, due to work or child-raising constraints; c) Some people won't be able to get to the locations where classes are held, due to lack of transportation. So, even in a pro-RKBA state, unless classes are offered on a plentiful basis, and on weekdays and weekends; and unless the government is willing to subsidize training costs; and unless the government is willing to provide child-care; and unless the government is willing to provide transportation - then mandatory training disproportionately impacts the poor, and single parents. |
March 16, 2013, 03:53 PM | #47 | |
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Quote:
But currently, an equally crucial part of owning a firearm is understanding gun laws that apply to you. The laws regarding firearms have moved a long way from the concept of "shall not be infringed." |
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March 16, 2013, 05:03 PM | #48 |
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-Xero-, welcome to TFL.
You're quite right that anyone who owns/carries a gun needs to understand the laws in his/her jurisdiction. This actually isn't the forum where most discussion of legal questions takes place. If you're interested in such, you should check out the Law & Civil Rights forum. We have many members who are quite knowledgeable about firearms law, and it's a subject that's of interest to all of us.
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March 16, 2013, 05:38 PM | #49 | |
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Quote:
Intelligence is not skill. Intelligence might help motivate one to take the proper actions to acquire skill, and intelligence paired with skill is a powerful combination. But just knowing how to do something does not mean that one can actually do it -- especially reflexively and on demand. Consider the four step process by which we acquire a physical skill:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; March 16, 2013 at 11:43 PM. Reason: correct typo |
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March 16, 2013, 10:58 PM | #50 | |
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Quote:
Sorry for the thread drift, i wont go in that direction but its related to the OP in regards for the good reasons there should not be a training requirement to own a firearm but it would be ideal if there was a worthy free program or resource available to all. Wishful thinking perhaps but I bet that many poor folks who own that one gun they managed to get would take advantage of if they had the option, at the very least they would be more aware of the study. ...and +1 for Frank Ettins last post.
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