what to do?

[New_Member_Name]

one thing i like to do is research cases of what or how BG's attack people. in my town the other week, a lady was robbed at gunpoint at a walmart parking lot at 1pm, broad daylight literally. they did eventually catch the guy thanks to security cameras but it got me wondering, say if that had been our GF/wife, and she carried in her pocketbook, could there have been anything she could have done? other then carry a gun in her pants or jacket, i dont think so. sometimes i believe there is no way around certain situations to where a gun would help.

[ScottRiqui]

That's a good observation - not every scenario is "winnable". If the BG "gets the drop on you" and has you at gunpoint, even a gun on your hip might not help, much less one in a purse/handbag. At that point, the best outcome you can probably hope for is to give them what they want and get away with your life, and to be a good witness for the police.

Of course, being aware of your surroundings is a vital component to self-defense, but I'm not naive enough to believe that it will always be enough.

[IDAHO83501]

If the lady being robbed would have had a pistol in her purse and knew how to use it, and could keep her wits about her, she could have shot the S.O.B. and not only ended his day, with any kind of luck ended his life.

[The Tourist]

Yikes, do you know how many times I've heard this old canard, "You have to shoot, there's no other way!"

There's always another way. As mentioned there's a better application of condition yellow.

I think that some guys are just looking for an excuse to try out their new hollowpoints and mugger is just as good a "test medium" as a sack of hotdogs.

There is a stickie here which reminds people to apply realism to the scenarios in discussion. The supposedly inductive reasoning of "stolen purse equals splattering brains" is puerile to the extreme. This is the type of "Deliverance" logic that paints us to look like a Sarah Brady handbook.

[mete]

Avoidance comes first ! What was the woman doing ? Thinking about the dress she would wear at the party ?
It should be have car key in your hand .Check the area carefully .Anything suspicious even to your sixth sense go back to the store .Even notify security if there are obvious things. As you walk to your car watch anyone along your path . BGs like to pick those who are not alert.When the BG is next to you it's too late !

[cubesmoothie]

Thank you Tourist.

[TailGator]

If I may play devil's advocate without offending anyone, consider this:

Woman is going to her car with her car keys in her hand and, rather than thinking about what dress she is wearing, she is paying attention to several people in her vicinity. There are six or eight people around, and half of them with their hands in their pants or jacket pockets because of a chill in the air. As she nears her car, one man is going towards the store, in the opposite direction from this lady, and when he is about three feet away his hand comes out of his jacket and there is a pistol in it.

What good is a gun right then, whether it is in her purse, at her waist, or in her own pocket. What did she do wrong to get herself in this mess? What action should she take now that a gun is pointed at her?

I don't want my wife or daughter thinking she can draw and fire faster than another can fire a gun in hand. I don't want them hitting the alarm button and maybe panicking someone with a gun in their hand, his finger on the trigger, and neither training nor concern for other people's safety. I don't want them fighting and giving their lives for their cash, their purse, their purchase, or even their car.

Sometimes you just don't win. I can accept that.

[BlackFeather]

Winning a self-defense situation is walking away alive, money means nothing in these situations.

Sure they "win" because they have your money but one battle as opposed to a war means nothing. He got caught I assume from the OPs mention of cameras.

[old bear]

Tourist, you are so right. The arm chair commandos who sit in the safety of their homes and advise everyone else to “pop a cap on the bandit” “kill them all, and let God sort it out.” Are doing more to destroy our sport than the entire anti gun crowd will ever be able to do. It’s people like this who make me embarrassed, at times, to admit I’m life long firearm owner and shooting enthusiast.

[Zetti1]

+1 for Tourist. I personally believe that good judgement and situational awareness are great prevention tools.

[cubesmoothie]

Woman is going to her car with her car keys in her hand and, rather than thinking about what dress she is wearing, she is paying attention to several people in her vicinity. There are six or eight people around, and half of them with their hands in their pants or jacket pockets because of a chill in the air. As she nears her car, one man is going towards the store, in the opposite direction from this lady, and when he is about three feet away his hand comes out of his jacket and there is a pistol in it.

Great point. Not very specific but the point of it is clear. This is when people need to get behind cover, unless they'll be shot in the process. It's difficult to decipher a situation like that without speaking of a historical event that actually took place. However, if one can get behind good cover, they can pull a firearm or not pull one it really all depends on the circumstance.

Another thing which i think is vital, how would you know the intentions of the man who drew the pistol? If he's pointing it at you that's one thing. Either way seek cover. But i feel a lot of younger, or newer folks to the whole carry scene might be putting innocent, well-intentioned FELLOW gun carriers at risk by just seeing gun and assuming that must be a bad guy. Its not always the case.

[KingEdward]

according to the knife proponents here she should have
pulled the spyderco and slashed him across the femoral artery
on the leg.

especially at Walmart.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by KingEdward

according to the knife proponents

Or according to the gun guys, engaged in several minutes of snappy Steven Segal banter, emptied a magazine, and won the Congressional Medal of Freedom for facing down the encroaching tide of crime without backing up or using a plea bargain to let the criminals win.

[KingEdward]

if her revolver was positioned with a little room in her purse,
she would have had the option to fire on him without removing
it from her purse.

I almost fired on two men from my jacket pocket late one
night in a parking garage.

I chose to verbally worn due to their proximity and they chose
to move away.

[mete]

Six or eight people standing around near her car ?? That's a big warning sign ! Stop and go back to the store .Have security guard escort you.

[Mike Faires]

The presence of a gun on your person in a time of danger may or may not be usefull in defusing the situation. It is simply one more tool in your bag to use. The most important tool you have in any situation is your mind, keep it shape and unclutered and you may never need to use any of the others.
For what it is worth Tourist has the right attitude and mindset. Is anything in your wallet or purse worth you life and or freedom. The right to posses and carry a firearm carrres with it the responcibility to use it wisely.

[BlackFeather]

according to the knife proponents here she should have
pulled the spyderco and slashed him across the femoral artery
on the leg.

Well, last I checked, I said nothing about a knife, and that's all I carry.

Before I forget, I hate Spyderco... Thanks

[TailGator]

Six or eight people standing around near her car

Actually, what I meant was that there were six or eight people in view in different places in the parking lot, but I wasn't at all clear.

The point I was trying to make is that everything isn't always perfect. We can talk about situational awareness, but if there are more than one person to keep track of, in different directions, you can't give 100% attention to one without ignoring other potential threats. We switch our attention from one person to another, giving each a miniscule opportunity to act against us before we notice. Likewise, we can't produce a weapon every time we pass someone in a parking lot or every time we someone with their hands in their pockets.

Sometimes the best trade is to give them money to go away. To me, there was a tone of "blame the victim" in some of the posts, and I wanted to counter that by pointing out that there are un-winnable situations. I can't, from what was posted OP, say that the woman messed up.

[JohnKSa]

Sometimes the best trade is to give them money to go away.

That assumes that they will go away if you give them the money. I agree that if you can predict that the outcome will be peaceful if you hand over your money that compliance is going to be the best approach.

[Uncle Ben]

I think you make a stong point TailGator. I see many posts where people mention "situational awareness", which is VERY good to have, no doubt, but you cannot claim to have 100% situational awareness of every person around you in every instance. It is just not possible in many cases.

Another possible variable would be if there were multiple aggressors working together, and coming from multiple angles to close-in on you. Say, for instance, that you are watching someone come in your general direction from a 45* angle as you approach your vehicle. Your eyes are going to be fixed on that person, so another could quite easily get close to you from the rear and have a gun on you before you could even react to them. Trying to draw that point would almost guarantee that you'll be shot, whereas if you at least comply you might have a change of handing over your wallet and keys and walk away unharmed. Every situation would be different, but this example would be another instance that you may not be able to draw and make use of your weapon, whatever it may be.

I recall another story where the OP said he was sitting in his car in bumper to bumper traffic (in daylight) and 4 aggressors approached his car on both sides, each w/ a gun in hand.

One of the first replies to his post said that he should have had better situational awareness...but I have no idea how that would have helped him, since in his vulnerable position he would have had to draw on just ONE of them, yet he would still have 3 other guns pointed at his head.

Anyway, my point is that awareness cannot possibly keep you from getting into a vulnerable position, so replying with that cookie-cutter reponse is not always valid.

[TailGator]

JohnKSa: Please note that the sentence started with the words "sometimes."

The point that I am apparently still not making effectively is that the OP did not present enough detail for us to condemn the erstwhile victim; yet there were posts that implied that the victim messed up to get herself robbed. I re-wrote the scenario with more details, purely from my imagination, with which I intended to show that there are some situations in which you are going to be surprised, or someone is going to have a drop on you, or some other set of conditions are going to develop in which a gun, no matter how it is carried, is not an option.

I'll bow out of this thread, on the grounds that if I can't make contact in three tries I don't deserve to keep swinging. But I'm just not one of those "shoot 'em all" types. My goal is to get out of the mess alive, even if I am poorer afterward.

[Lee Lapin]

A criminal assault is almost always a process, not a singular event. It's important to learn to recognize the signs that the process of victim selection is taking place, especially when you are the focus.

Forewarned is forearmed...

lpl
===
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

The Five Stages of Violent Crime:
Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified:

1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction

During the first three stages, you can prevent an attack without the use of violence. These are where the criminal (or violent person) decides whether or not he can get away with it. He may want to (Intent), but if he doesn't have the opportunity (Positioning) he cannot succeed. The Interview is his way to double check if you are safe for him to attack. If these conditions are not met, he will not attack!

[cubesmoothie]

i didnt see any posts that "blamed the victim".

[pax]

I did.

And I think it's time to give that tired argument a rest for awhile.

pax