German Luger - Engraved & Bakelite Grips

[Patriot Arms]

I am attempting to value a Luger. From the markings on the gun, I have determined it was produced by Mauser in 1942, however it has significant amount of engraving done on the gun as well as a special engraved wooden case, therefore, making it very difficult to determine any type of value.

All of the serial numbers seem to match based upon the research that I have already conducted. Any assistance would be helpful in determining value.

Thanks

[Bill DeShivs]

Need much better pictures of the gun. The case doesn't particularly matter.
From the one picture that shows any detail, the gun appears to be etched, rather than engraved.

[Patriot Arms]

Please take a look at these pictures. It shows the engraving in a little more detail, can send additional detailed pictures.

[Patriot Arms]

More Pictures

[RickB]

It's a nice-looking gun, but without supporting documentation I don't know that it's worth much more than a mill-run P08 in excellent condition.

The box is really cool, but no way of knowing if it's a legitimate 1930s-'40s artifact, or something cooked-up more recently to help sell the gun, unless there's a label or tag identifying the maker.

Any evidence of initials or a trademark that could identify the engraver?

[Patriot Arms]

I have searched with a magnifying glass for any initials or trademark information and cannot locate any indication of the engraver. The box also has no indication of engraver, etc. i am also leaning towards value at the standard P-08 because there is no real proof of authenticity. Thanks for input...

[Bill DeShivs]

I see that the gun is actually engraved.
The gun does not appear to have been refinished-meaning the engraving appears to be original to the gun.
Please understand- I am not a Luger expert-but I do have some expertise in hand engraving and metal finishing.
Some Luger experts should be along...

[tarhealcracker]

For years I had a nice matching parts Luger in nickle plate left to me by my uncle a WW2 vet . For years all the "aficionados " who saw or heard about it judged it nothing more than a nice shooter because there were "no factory made" nickel plated Lugers produced.

Then I got it to a Luger smith and historian who looked at the piece under a strong magnifying glass and pronounced it a factory applied finish with the part numbers applied after the plating. He said it was the only one he had ever seen or heard about and could not begin to estimate it's value. Most /many of the records from the several German factories making Lugers were lost in the war.

All of this occurred before the Internet and gun forums. My advice to you is get it to someone who really knows Luger history. Sorry, I can't help id such a person as my story is over 40 years back.

[briandg]

That box is without any doubt a modern creation, as may be the kit itself.

I think that if this was presented to a true expert on antique arms, a look at just the bluing itself would confirm or disprove the story.

I don't really have anything to say about the pistol itself. Not my field of expertise. That box, however, isn't even remotely similar to an eighty year old european walnut box. I don't even believe that the spline construction would have been used, it's cheap looking, the true craftsman would have used blind dovetails so precise that the things would be completely invisible.

Trust me, if those splines were anyolder than fifty years ago, there would be ovious changes in them. the wood, which appears to be unsealed, isn't remotely aged. That gold braid around the side that was apparently put on with glue and pinned in place?

Aluminum cleaning rods?

[Carmady]

I question the credibility of the grips, particularly as original to that gun.

This pertains to flags, but may apply to grips as well. Iirc, the swastika had two different angles. Pre-war swastikas were straight up & down on the sides, and straight across on the top & bottom. Swastikas during the war were tilted at a 45 degree angle.

If that pistol was made it 1942, the swastikas on the grips should be tilted. Those in the OP are not, maybe they're legit pre-war grips that were originally on a different pistol, maybe they're fake grips. I have no idea.

The swastika on the case is tilted, which coincides with the 1942 date, but that doesn't mean it's original to the pistol.

It's still a cool piece. Good luck sorting it out.

[Patriot Arms]

Thank you all for your information, it does help to piece this puzzle together.

[44 AMP]

Is there any documentation of any kind with the gun?? Or just a story?

If there is no claim it is a presentation piece, and no special price or value is demanded, then its not technically a forgery. There were engraved presentation Lugers made, and given to Nazi party officials. The ones we know about are documented. It is not impossible that there are undocumented examples still "undiscovered".

But in this case, I would doubt it. Several little things just don't "look" right. Most notably, the eagles. Pictures I have seen of Luger grips with Nazi Eagles on them had the eagle higher up on the grip, and in addition, though it tough to see, the grip eagle's head doesn't look "right".

The disc on the box has the entire background engraved, to the point where it nearly hides the eagle. This is unusual. Generally the background was left plain. Nazi's were proud of their symbols (until 1945 ) and generally didn't hide them.

My Luger book has gone on holiday, but when it resurfaces, I can check the markings. What was it that let you determine it was 1942 mfg??
(good pics of all markings, including chamber & toggle markings, if any, would be a big help)

It is not impossible you have found one of the uber-rare undocumented presentation pieces.

it is more likely you have found a Luger that was "prettyed-up" post war. During the post war occupation of Germany there were a LOT of very skilled smiths and engravers who were desperate for work, and a bunch of good quality work could be had for the cost of a carton of cigarettes or a pound of butter.

I have no proof at all, and could easily be wrong, but to me the grips scream "post war Asian reproduction". I know this isn't much help, sorry.

[COSteve]

I'd post your pics on http://www.lugerforum.com/ and see what information you get from them.

[Patriot Arms]

44 AMP

Thank you very much for your assessment. There is no documentation on this piece, that is what is making it very difficult to assess. The byf and the 42 are what lead me to believe this was a Mauser and manufactured in 1942, but this may be incorrect.

Thanks

[Patriot Arms]

Thanks, COSteve

[briandg]

44, I had questions about the center accent as well. The oval was cut far too perfectly, it was done by a pantograph with a small flat bottomed router bit. The stippled background was done with a rotary tool, the work is identical to the work that I get on wood using dental bits or slightly larger. There appear to be some chatter marks in places, but they may be something else. The slots in the swastika are immaculate but the rest is inconsistent. the actual shaping of the eagle is crude.

I haven't brought this up before, not certain because of the pictures, but that is the worst blueing job that I have ever seen on a quality piece. Wouldn't a presentation luger given for valued service be amazing? A piece of art?

[Bill DeShivs]

The gun is rust blued-just like all the other Lugers. Rust-bluing is not shiny.

[44 AMP]

The photos don't do it justice, though they do show the straw color on the trigger, takedown lever and safety.

My standard catalog of Luger is apparently off having a bier or drei in the Tyrolean alps.

byf is the wartime code for Mauser. is 42 (1942) the date on the chamber? is there a date on the chamber?? "s/42" on the toggle is not a date. It is code for "produced under military contract".

Are the magazines numbered to the gun?? Very rare to find BOTH original matching magazines with the gun. Do be aware that # matching magazine(s) could be a "force match", even when the rest of the gun is all original...

(when I find that darn book, I can tell you if they should be, or not... wish I could be more help..I AM looking, )

[jonnyc]

I would also assume that an engraved presentation Luger would have matching mags.

[Patriot Arms]

44 AMP,

I have attached some additional pictures.

The magazines are not serial numbered matched to the gun.

Thanks for the help

[Patriot Arms]

Magazine Pictures

[Carmady]

I believe the mag serial numbers should be on the very bottom, on the cylindrical part. Any numbers there?

[Patriot Arms]

There are no numbers stamped on the cylindrical part of the magazines.

[Carmady]

Nothing like this? Yours may be a shooter all gussied up. Still a nice pistol.

[Patriot Arms]

No, the bottom is plastic.