To warn or not to warn? That is the question.

[TailGator]

Old Marksman, in the event that a prosecutor tries to make hay of the fact that a BG was shot in the back, would a defense attorney not be able to argue that it is possible for the BG to turn as the trigger is being pressed, not giving the defender the reaction time to stop his action?

[kilimanjaro]

"If your firearm is already drawn and pointed at the suspect your reaction time is much less than 1 second.
You can test out your reaction time using a shot timer at the range with both a holstered and unholstered gun."

I agree that is probably the reaction time at the range where you are testing for reaction time. It's even the reaction time at high noon in the streets of Dodge City in 1876 where two pistoleros face off in a duel.

This is a completely unexpected and unplanned event. You or a companion are the victim of a surprise attack by an aggressor.

In a semi-dark location, with an abnormal person reacting to your actions and commands, furtive movements, aggression, one or more victims, 'helpful' onlookers, and even normalcy bias, reaction time is at best a crapshoot. Tunnel vision is not your friend.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by TailGator:

Old Marksman, in the event that a prosecutor tries to make hay of the fact that a BG was shot in the back, would a defense attorney not be able to argue that it is possible for the BG to turn as the trigger is being pressed, not giving the defender the reaction time to stop his action?

Sure--that's mentioned here and there in the literature.

This is an excerpt from Defending the Self Defense Case, written by attorney Lisa J. Steele for NACDL, which has been reproduced with permission, and linked in posts from Frank Ettin.

Wounds in the Back

This is a very troubling fact for many juries. The medical examiner may find that the client has shot (or stabbed) the aggressor in the side or back, leading to an argument that the client shot the aggressor while he or she was trying to flee. A moderately healthy person can turn his or her torso 180º in .53 seconds and can turn his or her entire body 180º in .667 seconds.12 This is very close to the amount of time it takes a trained police officer to fire a handgun. Thus, it is possible that at the moment the client began to fire at the aggressor, the aggressor was facing him. By the time the client completed firing the handgun, the aggressor had turned around, resulting in a shot in the back.

I should think that the discussion would best be supported by the testimony of an expert witness.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are simulations of the shooting of the back scenario in SD situation by forensic medical experts. A good defense lawyer should be able to dig those up and if necessary bring in an expert (bye bye to your money though).

[wogpotter]

I've always been a firm believer in:
Fire a warning shot into the head.
Shout: "Halt! I am Armed."
Discharge a round in a safe direction.

Yes, this is a joke.

[gyvel]

I have been to several different schools with different instructors with different backgrounds. My take from all of them is this. Given that you are about to engage a suspect with lethal force, the threshhold of eminence of peril has been crossed and you have determined that the bad guy needs to be stopped and needs to be stopped NOW. Yelling STOP STOP STOP or whatever other verbiage does nothing to help you put bullets on target and may, in fact, put you at a significant tactical disadvantage by drawing attention to yourself (assuming you are not already the intended victim) before you have a chance to fire.

This ^^^^

[4V50 Gary]

Warn, but be prepared to shoot. It looks better before a jury.

[A pause for the COZ]

Posted by A pause for the COZ:
Quote:
Nope!! Not gona do it. This is the most effective combo I have ever used.
That light is just too good. Will turn night into day.
There have been extensive discussions of the pros and cons of weapon mounted lights here, and they are beyond the scope of this thread.

Quote:
They wont know I have a gun on them unless I tell them or have to use it.
The light is too bright for them to see me at all.
Personally, I would never risk committing a crime because I believed that the likelihood that it will become known is low.

Quote:
I found just carrying a flash light. I never felt proficient being able to light and shoot at the same time. I am a two handed shooter. This just fits how I can be most effective.
Look for some videos and try it.

Quote:
Now I may add a hand held tactical light and drop it if I need to draw.
Seems like that is extra work.
Hardly a reason for taking a such risk.

Quote:
But Having tromped around my sheds with a gun drawn kinda sucks too.
It sure does! It is a BAD idea.

You do not want to expose your firearm unless you have reason to believe that you may have to use it, and you do NOT want to point it at anyone unless you have a reason to believe that force (deadly force, in most states, including Minnesota) is immediately necessary to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The evidence you will need for for justification is a lot lower inside your home than it is "around your sheds" or "around the homestead".

"Investigating something suspicious" outdoors does not meet the test.

Those are just the legal reasons. One really should consider the possibility that someone, good or bad, who sees you walking around at night with a gun in hand just might shoot you.


OldMarksman:
Yea the more I think about it the more I dont like what I am doing. You may have a convert.

[Mike38]

Interesting reading here. I've always held the belief that if I've drawn my weapon, I've already made the decision to use it. Food for thought.

[Brit]

Quote:
I'm sure every state has different laws and often these laws change but a very good friend of mine was at home asleep during the day. He works nights at a plywood mill. His wife was at work and his kids in school. 2 ARMED men broke into his house. He woke up and naturally grabbed his gun. He shot the first man in the leg and chest and as the second one turned he shot him in the lower back. The one shot from the front somehow lived but the other died before he made it to the hospital. The judge ruled that the attacker was turning to flee and therefore my friend was charged with a number of charges. He only did 5 years but that's 5 years without seeing his kids everyday. I know some of you are gona think I'm lieing and say all kinds of stuff so go ahead and I hope I never have to say I told you so. Im not speaking on what I think I'm speaking of what I know for fact.

In working as an expert witness for over 20 years in Canada. If I have one piece of advice to give, it is do not spill your guts to the responding Officers. The Police do not do that, after a shooting, take a page from their book.

So you need an Expert Witness, and a competent Criminal Lawyer.

So much in criminal charges is tied to state of mind. There is 5 pages right there, worked nights, awakened from a deep sleep.

The massive effect Adrenalin has on a human, he should have walked out of Court a free man.

When I ran my training School in Ontario Canada (for Security/Armored Vehicle Guards/ATM Employees/Police) Police was simple, more or less North America wide "Police don't move" My initial command for Security "STOP I have a Gun" used once by one ATM Guard. He was found not guilty, the training worked, one round straight through the heart.

Your blood pressure right after a shooting incident? Through the roof. In the 100s. Your hands vibrate, you could not spit for $100.00. Your hearing is toast.

You have no idea how many rounds you fired, you do not realize you changed magazines!

Posters who have noted speaking being detrimental? In a confrontation? It can be used to your advantage also. When working on the doors of Clubs in Liverpool UK, in the early 60s (Yes a long time ago) a question like "What time is your last bus?" as they start to speak, you hit.

It is not a sport you know. Just a part time job, one you want to go home from.

[Ricklin]

Quote
It is not a sport you know. Just a part time job, one you want to go home from.


Nicely put.

[dakota.potts]

As others have said, there's no easy answer. It's dependent entirely on the situation. I lock all of my doors at home (including my bedroom door) for two reasons:
1) I would much rather someone decide that going through multiple locked doors is not worth their time and leave than have to use force. Force is dangerous for both parties and I would just as soon not have to deal with the legal and emotional trauma that even a justified use of force brings.
2) I want as much time as possible in the event that a use of force is unavoidable.

In that case, there's likely to be no warning, or if I have time, the racking of a semi-auto rifle bolt in place of a warning.

In other situations with a gun or knife, the threat to me would be so obvious that no warning should be needed. Other threats such as, say, a robber armed with a baseball bat who is a decent distance away from me and not immediately within reach of anybody, may get more room for warning. That's all situation dependent though, and I'm sure I can't accurately predict exactly how I'll act in such a case.

I don't CCW yet (have a number of months before I can get my permit) but I do keep them loaded around the house and in the car. These are good questions to ask.

[TimSr]

I've always held the belief that if I've drawn my weapon, I've already made the decision to use it.

I'm glad the police don't use your threshhold. I'm sorry every suspicious noise at night either turns out to be a dangerous criminal, or that you would only draw a weapon after firmly establishing that as fact.


We'd all like to thing of the bad guy as a large ugly man who is dirty and stinks, and wears a black mask, and a gun in his hand, entering through your window in the dead of night, so we can shoot him without reservation, but when you come home from church on Sunday afternoon, and surprise two 15 year old girls with no visible weapons who are getting ready to run off with your laptop, you might decide that use of your drawn weapon in not warranted.

You have to use your head in each individual situation. The words "always" and "never" should be used sparingly.

[Sharkbite]

The words "always" and "never" should be used sparingly

Truer Words were "never" spoken!!

[OldMarksman]

Posted by TimSr:

I'm glad the police don't use your threshhold.

I don't know about other jurisdictions, but in my state the thresholds law enfacement officers and for civilians are not the same.

...when you come home from church on Sunday afternoon, and surprise two 15 year old girls with no visible weapons who are getting ready to run off with your laptop, you might decide that use of your drawn weapon in not warranted.

The important question at that point would be whether your drawing of the weapon had been lawfully justifiable in the first place.

In your occupied home? You could make a good case for it.

In most states, one may not lawfully display a weapon unless there is reason to believe that the use of deadly force would be justified. Again, that may not apply to law enforcement.

Of course, situations can change very quickly.

Back to surprising an intruder upon returning home: best to get out quickly and summon help. You could be ambushed by someone whose presence is not obvious, and if someone else has already called the police, you would risk being misidentified and dealt with unpleasantly by first responders.

[Mike38]

I'm glad the police don't use your threshhold. I'm sorry every suspicious noise at night either turns out to be a dangerous criminal, or that you would only draw a weapon after firmly establishing that as fact.

I wasn't talking about hearing my front door get kicked in at 2:00am. Sure, I'd grab a handgun and check out what was going on. What I was referring to, or at least trying, was drawing from concealment. Like maybe while at the store, or fueling up my car, or walking down the sidewalk, something like that. If you draw a weapon if someone looks at you funny, you'll find yourself charged with brandishing, behind bars, waiting for someone to bail you out. Or at least in my state you will.

[j3ffr0]

I would warn if possible. I don't want to shoot anyone or deal with the consequences.

However, back to the OP -- "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" and "STOP!" bring to mind two completely different scenarios for me. In the former the subject is already shown an willingness to hurt or kill someone by brandishing a weapon. In the later I envision some kid breaking into a house and not being aware someone is home. I'd be less likely to warn in the first scenario.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Mike38:

What I was referring to, or at least trying, was drawing from concealment. Like maybe while at the store, or fueling up my car, or walking down the sidewalk, something like that. If you draw a weapon if someone looks at you funny, you'll find yourself charged with brandishing, behind bars, waiting for someone to bail you out. Or at least in my state you will.

There are no jurisdictions in which the display of a weapon would be justified because someone "looks funny" or may appear to be acting suspiciously.

So yes, the would be serous legal risk.

I would be equally concerned about the risk of getting shot.

[chimo]

Common sense applies. If the threat to my life or someone else's is IMMINENT...meaning seconds count...I am going to end the threat, not warn it.

If the threat is less than imminent where a warning won't put myself or others in further danger, of course I will warn.

[101combatvet]

I realize some will respond that it depends on the situation - and I tend to agree. For example, if the threat has his back to you and doesn't see you, you might not shoot him in the back without warning and giving him the opportunity to stand down. Unless he was pointing a gun at your loved ones- maybe?

Obvious response.

The verbal warning is for liability reasons, you told him to stop, he continued to come toward you, you feared for your life. BANG

[Ton]

It is going to depend on the situation. Personally, if an incident occurs inside of my home, I'm probably not going to warn anybody with a weapon in hand, or anybody who would actively approach me.

If, as somebody said, I wake up mid day to some teenager trying to steal my dvd player when he believes nobody is home, it would be a different situation.

I would recommend limiting a warning to two syllables. Something very simple and fast to yell like "DROP IT!" I have found that in those extremely critical and stressful moments when your heart is racing and you don't yet know if the BG is going to be compliant, your mouth can seem to fall apart.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by 101combatvet:

The verbal warning is for liability reasons, you told him to stop, he continued to come toward you, you feared for your life. BANG

Your having given a verbal warning will neither provide evidence that you had a reasonable basis for believing that you were seriously endangered, nor will it show that the use of deadly force had been immediately necessary to defend yourself against such danger.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Ton:

Personally, if an incident occurs inside of my home, I'm probably not going to warn anybody with a weapon in hand, or anybody who would actively approach me.

Think at least twice before resorting to the threat or use of force should someone "actively approach" you, unless a number of other very important conditions exist.

[101combatvet]

Your having given a verbal warning will neither provide evidence that you had a reasonable basis for believing that you were seriously endangered, nor will it show that the use of deadly force had been immediately necessary to defend yourself against such danger.

I was mentioning why it was taught, I never said I would partake in such activity. With that being said, under certain situations (depending on the state) it might help your case if it went to trial.

[OldMarksman]

I was mentioning why it was taught, I never said I would partake in such activity. With that being said, under certain situations (depending on the state) it might help your case if it went to trial.

One advantage might have to do with eyewitness testimony. If you are threatened and have to shoot someone, it is very likely that eyewitnesses will see you with the gun and will see nothing about what the other person had done. Your shouting of a warning could draw the attention of eyewitnesses to the attacker.