Mass vs. Energy

[MINSH101]

What is most important to you, other than shot placement which is king, in terms of stopping a threat, mass or energy?

The comparison I have in mind is 44 magnum vs 45 caliber, ACP or long colt. The 45s have a larger diameter compared to a 44 mag; .452 and .430 respectively. However, according to all the data I've been able to come across, the 44 mag produces more energy than either 45 calibers when using the same barrel length and bullet weight.

So would you rather have a bigger bullet or one that's being pushed with more energy in a defensive situation?

Thanks in advance

[zxcvbob]

Energy and mass are the same thing. E = mc^2

I would prefer .45 Colt for defense. Larger diameter, heavier bullet, less recoil, and less muzzle and cylinder-gap blast.

[jackstrawIII]

You're asking a very specific question. You're not asking about platforms, shootability, capacity, repeat shots, etc.

You're asking if you could choose to fire one single bullet at a target, would it be from a 44 mag, a 45 LC, or a 45 ACP.

Ask yourself this question: which of them would you rather shoot a deer with?
Any of us who do any hunting would choose the 44 Mag every time if you were to compare the three cartridges you listed.

To keep the analogy going... as good as the 44 Mag is, many of us choose to hunt with something smaller and faster than that (aka 30-06, 270, 6.5, etc).

So, for the one-bullet scenario, history has shown that most of us choose smaller/faster projectiles.

[Aguila Blanca]

The .44 Magnum "produces" more energy than .45 Colt or .45 ACP of the same bullet weight for the simple reason that the .44 Magnum is a magnum cartridge. It releases more energy because it burns more powder.

As zxcvbob noted, the formula for energy is E = mc^2. So ... double the mass, and you get double the energy. Double the velocity, and you get four times the energy. But that's on the output side. We're starting with a bullet at rest, in the chamber of a firearm. In order to cause that bullet to accelerate, energy has to be applied to that bullet. That's the burning of the propellant (gunpowder).

In terms of terminal effectiveness, most sources seem to agree that velocity (energy) has more effect in creating a disabling wound channel than bullet weight. In terms of the comparison between bullets of .430" and .450" diameter, I don't think the difference in diameter (4.7%) is worth worrying about. On the other hand, .45 Colt can be loaded to some pretty stout velocities, arguably getting right up there with .44 Magnum.

Your question greatly oversimplies the issue. Just about all "calibers" (meaning cartridges) are available even from the factories in different loadings, so it's far more than just a question of bullet diameter and weight. 9mm Luger, for example, is widely available in 115-grain, 124-grain, and 147-grain loadings -- some standard power and others in +P. .45 Auto is readily found in 165-grain, 185-grain, 200-grain and 230-grain loadings -- again, some in standard power and others in +P. For .45 ACP, Remington offered the same bullet wight in the Golden Saber line as both standard and +P power.

Your question is about "stopping power," which is somewhat of a myth. That said, all things being equal (which they never are), IMHO velocity/energy is more important than bullet weight/mass.

[74A95]

Guys, the formula for muzzle energy is :

(Velocity X Velocity X Bullet Weight) / 450,240

http://www.potomacltd.com/calculate_muzzle_energy.htm

or

E = (1/2)mv^2 where v is velocity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy


The formula you've given is Einstein's mass–energy equivalence formula where c is the speed of light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E...gy_equivalence

[T. O'Heir]

"...44 Magnum vs 45 caliber..." There is no 'vs', but those are the classic examples of 'Big things going fast' for the .44 and 'Big things going slow' for the .45. Otherwise, it's the same thing only different. Big and fast isn't any better than big and slow though. And neither of 'em will give a 100%, absolutely, every time , one shot stop of anything.
However, the diameter is irrelevant. Only the weight matters.
"...the .44 Magnum is a magnum..." It's a magnum because Smith's Marketing Dept. said it was back in 1955.

[USSR]

Personally, I prefer the Taylor KO formula which includes bullet diameter and doesn't over emphasize velocity as the straight energy formula does. Just MHO.

TKOF = weight x velocity x diameter

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7000

Don

[RickB]

People do like to quote muzzle energy figures to compare the "power" of cartridges.

At the same time, historic attempts to compare the target effectiveness of cartridges - Taylor's KO, Hatcher's Relative Stopping Power - were based on measurements of momentum.

There are lots of models of bullet effectiveness, but people who actually shot living things for a living - hunters, cops - tended toward big, heavy bullets.

[44 AMP]

So would you rather have a bigger bullet or one that's being pushed with more energy in a defensive situation?

I go with the bigger bullet (see my sig line).

However, there are circumstances where its essentially irrelevant. .44 "vs" .45 is one.


Which is more important, mass or energy for stopping an attack???
Mass. Every freakin' time. Energy is a calculated value. Mass is a measured quantity. There is a difference.

Lets look at an extreme comparison to illustrate the difference.

You can load a .22-250 and a .45-70 to the same energy level (say 1600ft/lbs ME). 55gr .22 caliber bullet, vs 405gr .45caliber bullet. Both with the same energy, but hugely different bullet mass.

Which one would you pick if you had to stop a very angry he-cow who wanted to stomp you into paste???

By choice, I wouldn't pick the .22...

Now, when you look at .44 Mag vs .45Colt or ACP, they are very close in bore size and mass. Very close. The .44 Mag has a much larger energy number, but that's because it has a much higher velocity, with essentially the same mass.

A measurable difference, and a significant difference are not always the same thing.

[xandi]

“What is most important to you, other than shot placement which is king, in terms of stopping a threat, mass or energy?”
Controllability, with the platform.
So whatever feels better, and preforms better, for me is what I would choose
A lighter projectile has less momentum at the same velocity as a heavyer one.
Everything is a trade off

[stinkeypete]

In my experience, there is no practical difference between .44 magnum and .45 Colt when handloaded for a Ruger.

I used to prefer the .45 Colt, because I handloaded and it’s a grand old cartridge. My dad used to prefer .44 because he liked to buy ammo mostly and .44 magnum has a grand tradition, too.

The differences in bullet mass and kinetic energy depend on bullet design and load. As the old man passed his best .44 down to me, it’s now my favorite.

To get to the question, I had, long ago, worked a long time with .357 Maximum in the Contender. Recoil was brutal, snappish, and a sharp noise and big fireball. As soon as I got my .45 Colt Blackhawk, I sold that .357 Max off. My opinion is that while both energy and mass are important... if you start with a big hole and recoil and bang that didn’t spook me, I shot a lot better.

As I was learning this, I was in an area of small farms, close together, with some densely wooded rolling hills then mid sized fields.

I did fine with my 30-30, which I had loaded to “Paco style, marlin only.” I tried it, learned, and don’t recommend it. Deer got flattened, no doubt- but I was forever concerned about knowing my backstop as those little fast bullets could easily make it several farmhouses over.

My dad had a .44 magnum lever action, and that thing equally flattened whitetails. While safety always comes first, throwing a big heavy bullet slowly means a bigger arc and less worry about sending a bullet far away unintended.

Yes, we want comparable energies, but for my terrain... close shots, big strong northern whitetails.. I prefer big bore, heavy and slow.

Anything in practical handgun range.. big bore for me.

[Kirosha]

If my only two options were energy on target/out the barrel (weight x velocity) or dimension of projectile, I'd definitely be more concerned with energy.

[JohnKSa]

I prefer the Taylor KO formula which includes bullet diameter and doesn't over emphasize velocity as the straight energy formula does...

The formula for kinetic energy does not "over emphasize" velocity. The effects of kinetic energy are measureable and the formula accurately calculates kinetic energy, as confirmed by experimental results.

It is true that kinetic energy does not provide a single number that totally characterizes the terminal effect of a projectile, but that's not because the formula is invalid or "over emphasizes" velocity, it's because terminal effect is more complicated than any single number.

Energy is a calculated value. Mass is a measured quantity. There is a difference.

Kinetic energy and mass are both scientifically verified properties of projectiles. Kinetic energy can be measured, just like mass can. That is, in fact, how the formula we use for kinetic energy was originally validated. The idea that there's some scientific principle that makes mass somehow more valid or useful than energy is, to say the least, unconventional.

The reason there's so much confusion about this topic isn't that energy is less valid or less important than mass, it's that the two quantities characterize different things about the projectile and most people don't understand what the energy number actually means.

That leads to people over-emphasizing energy--trying to claim it tells you everything (or nearly everything) you need to know about a projectile--and to others under-emphasizing energy--trying to claim that it is meaningless, misleading, or that it is equivalent to some made up formula which has no scientific basis.

[ThomasT]

Personally, I prefer the Taylor KO formula which includes bullet diameter and doesn't over emphasize velocity as the straight energy formula does. Just MHO.
TKOF = weight x velocity x diameter

The Taylor KO tables were developed for big game rounds desinged to hunt large African game animals and really wasn't intended for handguns.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/taylor_KO_factor.htm

[jmr40]

The most important things are shot placement and penetration. Bullet diameter, velocity, and weight are far less important. In fact larger diameter bullets, and more impact velocity will often result in less penetration. Bullet construction and having the bullet impact at the speeds it was designed for are more important.

Bullet diameter hasn't been that important since we stopped shooting round balls with black powder. With round balls the only way to get a bigger ball is with larger diameter ball. With conical bullets we can use a smaller diameter bullet and make it heavier than a round ball by making it longer.

The various formulas that predict bullet momentum do a good job of predicting which bullets will knock over steel plates, but tell us next to nothing about how they perform when they hit flesh and bone.

Energy numbers CAN be useful if interpreted correctly. If not it can lead to incorrect conclusions.

[B.L.E.]

A bowling ball is a high momentum, low energy projectile. It sends bowling pins flying, but does little damage to them.
A .220 Swift bullet is a high energy low momentum projectile. It may tip the pin over, but mostly it destroys the part of the bowling pin in its path.
What is it we want to do to the target? Knock it over or destroy it?

[sigxder]

Stopping power is a myth. Knockdown power is a myth. You can get a bigger hole by pushing medium sized expanding projectiles at speeds sufficient to cause them to open. Or a big slow bullet. Both sides of the Force equation work. Putting the bullet where you need to. Getting deep enough to reach vitals. Making as big a hole as possible. And repeat as necessary is all that works. And the differences in hole size is not nearly as great in modern projectiles in the service calibers to make much of a difference no matter what people say. See why the F.B.I. came to their conclusions.

[Aguila Blanca]

I'm not sure why anyone is arguing. You can build either .44 Magnum or .45 Colt to pretty much any velocity or energy level you want (within more or less the same range). For example, The Sportsmans Guide lists both velocity and muzzle energy for all the ammo they sell. Some representative numbers:

.44 Magnum

PMC Bronze -- 180 gr -- 1,392 fps -- 772 ft-lbs.
Hornady XTP -- 240 gr -- 1,350 fps -- 971 ft-lbs.
Hornady XTP -- 300 gr -- 1,150 fps -- 881 ft-lbs.
Federal Vital-Shok -- 225 gr -- 1,280 fps -- 820 ft-lbs.
Federal Vital-Shok -- 280 gr -- 1,170 fps -- 850 ft-lbs
Remington HTP -- 240 gr -- 1,180 fps -- 741 ft-lbs.
Ultramax Cowboy -- 240 gr -- 750 fps -- 300 ft-lbs.


.45 Colt
Hornady FTX -- 225 gr -- 960 fps -- 460 ft-lbs.
Winchester Super-X -- 255 gr -- 860 fps -- 420 ft-lbs.
Remington HTP -- 230 gr -- 850 fps -- 369 ft-lbs.
Cor-Bon +P -- 200 gr -- 1,100 fps -- 537 ft-lbs.
Barnes VOR-TX -- 200 gr -- 1,025 fps -- 467 ft-lbs.
Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman -- 255 gr -- 1,000 fps -- 566 ft-lbs.
Buffalo Bore Deer Grenade -- 260 gr -- 1,500 fps -- 1,299 ft-lbs
Ultramax Cowboy -- 200 gr -- 765 fps -- 290 ft-lbs.
Ultramax Cowboy -- 250 gr -- 750 fps -- 300 ft-lbs.


Between .44 Magnum and .45 Colt, both are available with a wide range of bullet weights, and a wide range of velocities. The difference in diameter is negligible -- the bigger differences are going to be generated by bullet weight and velocity. .44 Magnum is a more popular "caliber," so there are more choices available in that. SGC lists 20 choices for .45 Colt, but 28 for .44 Magnum. And eight of the .45 Colt choices (almost half) are Cowboy Action loads -- low velocity, low energy ammunition suitable for shooting out of old guns that may not be strong enough to handle modern power loads. At the other end, we can find .45 Colt loads that generate 50 percent more muzzle energy than most of the more powerful .44 Magnum loads.

Take your pick.

[Model12Win]

Mass.

If all things are equal (and they almost never are), bigger bullets tend to work better.

The old .455 Webley had a tremendous reputation for knock down factor, despite having a low energy signature. Modern loads like 9mm are nowhere near as good of stoppers even though they have a higher energy reading in tests.

[JohnKSa]

The old .455 Webley had a tremendous reputation for knock down factor, despite having a low energy signature. Modern loads like 9mm are nowhere near as good of stoppers...

What test results/real world data sets provide a basis for the assertion comparing these two cartridges?

[Model12Win]

Compare reports from the Great War to today's current conflict in Iraq.

Real world results speak for themselves.

[JJ45]

John Linebaugh, the custom big bore creator, has a comparison of the two on his web site (I think he passed away,not sure)

Taylor KO formula results...hand loads in Blackhawk, Freedom Arms, etc. SA revolvers;

.430 X 240 X 1400 - 20.6 KO.....44 Mag
.452 X 260 X 1400 - 23.3-KO.....45 Colt

...as was stated above, picking' nits but the article is a long one with a lot of info on these chamberings and re-loading advice, including a lot practical experience.

John Wooters once wrote an article where he claimed that the 45 Colt, in factory guise, was an excellent big game getter as is, without pushing the envelope. This in Colt SA Army and similar revolvers including DA Smith revolvers.

[rodfac]

Personally, I prefer the Taylor KO formula which includes bullet diameter and doesn't over emphasize velocity as the straight energy formula does.

Me too...and placement trumps everything. I sometimes think we get wrapped around the handle attempting to make mathematical models which will predict, even partially, gunshot effectiveness. There are just too many variables involved IMHO, for me to trust any that I've studied...but a bullet, damned near any bullet, placed in the critical CNS or major artery/heart zones will do the job. Rod

[BBarn]

Energy and momentum are mathematical calculations smart men have derived to describe and predict how physical object behave. Both energy and momentum calculations include mass as a factor. The Taylor Knock Out Factor is a modification to the momentum calculation with a factor for bullet diameter added in an attempt to better predict a cartridges killing effectiveness on game. Which of those calculations (or any others) best represent the effectiveness of cartridges will be forever debated.

One thing to keep in mind with expanding projectiles is that expansion uses up some of the bullet's energy. This perhaps explains to a large degree why non-expanding cast bullets perform very well in the area of penetration.

[Wag]

Terminal ballistics is a pretty exact science and what it comes down to in the end is mass x velocity. A cargo ship in the water moving at 2 mph can destroy a small sailboat. A .22 caliber bullet moving at 2,200 fps can't do that much damage but it can bring down a deer.

Scaling down, a smaller bullet moving faster is preferred if you want penetration but a bigger bullet moving slowly is preferred if you want to deliver a lot of energy into the target.

You can use the same weight bullet in .44 magnum and .45 Colt so the only thing left as a variable between the two is velocity which you can tune up to make the two rounds match. Shoot both through a chronometer and if two bullets with the same mass are traveling at the same velocity, terminal ballistics can be expected to be identical, regardless of what gun fired them.

Your only real answer in any case comes down the what variables you can control and to what degree you can control them. Control bullet weight, control speed and you can get pretty much what you want out of either.

I've always thought the .44 magnum could be loaded to higher pressures, though, so if you're looking to maximize your mass x velocity equation, I think you need to go with the .44 magnum.

--Wag--