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April 30, 2013, 06:09 PM | #26 |
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Hardworker...
With all due respect..."Never Forget". I think that few would object to reminding generations what happened during the Holocaust. It is not disrespect for the dead to warn against embracing the same ideas and policies that helped lead to their demise. |
April 30, 2013, 08:04 PM | #27 | |
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April 30, 2013, 08:12 PM | #28 |
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There are some in Germany who don't like to be reminded that Germany perpetrated the holocaust. There are some in the United States (and Canada, and throughout South America) who don't like to be reminded that white Europeans set out to eliminate the people they found in the "new world" when they got here.
If it's poor taste to remember what we did to the Native Americans, it must also be poor taste to remember what Hitler did to the Jews. |
April 30, 2013, 09:12 PM | #29 | |
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These tribes were still forced, along with the others, to walk the "trail of tears." If they weren't marked for extermination, they were definitely marked for segregation. In fact, our excuse for moving them onto reservations was to centralize them in order to convert them to Christianity. The irony was that many of them had already converted. We wanted their property and their resources. Period. We never intended them to become part of us. And the reason we were able to do all of this was not because they didn't have guns. It was more fundamental than that. The early Native American was fiercely individualistic. That's what the white policy makers couldn't comprehend, viz. that no one Indian had the power to make a treaty that would be binding over all other Indians. But if those early Indians had had the foresight to band together and follow a single leader, this might have been an entirely different country. They were just too fragmented to oppose us. |
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April 30, 2013, 09:51 PM | #30 |
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Pro Gun Rights Billboard Angers (some) Native Americans
I think the media will find the people who want to be offended and write their story. The fact that a message can be promoted that uses indigenous people to point out the role of government strong arming a people and have it correlate with the actions of their president is troublesome for them. They cannot argue the facts so they resort to emotion and thus find those who can be offended. It is the only way to combat logic.
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April 30, 2013, 10:35 PM | #31 |
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My son is Chippewa-Cree and he is offended by codependent, white liberals who don't recognize how patronizing it is to presume to speak for anyone as if they are children who can't think and speak for themselves.
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May 1, 2013, 10:02 AM | #32 |
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I took a Poli Sci course entitled 'The Rise of European Centric Powers", covering England, Germany, Spain, and America(based on our colonial roots).
The course was a bit of a joke, taught by an aging hippy who was an avowed fan of Bill Ayers, but she made one good point. "All white empires at one point in time committed some from of genocide." Being the token right wing frat boy my arm shot up and I asked what the Americans had done. And to my everlasting chagrin, she replied with "Mack, didn't you say you were an Armored Cavalryman? Do they not list Wounded Knee as a great victory in the Army?" Redfaced I ceded the point. Might be the one thing of import I took from that class. I agree with the sentiment that white washing the elimination of the Native Americans is akin to overlooking the Holocaust.
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May 1, 2013, 10:35 AM | #33 | |
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It is important to realize that genocide is a twentieth century term. Prior to 1930, wholesale slaughter of enemy populations was often used as part of war. Sure it was considered un-gentlemanlike, but it happened pretty often. The Thirty-Years War is an example of extreme brutality, and if those people (Prussian, Austrians, Swedes etc.) had been given access to gas chambers and cluster bombs, they no doubt would have achieved Hitler-like levels of atrocities. They just had to make do with hacking and beating of helpless civilians, along with policies of enforced famine. In more ancient times, Julius Caesar achieved peace in Gaul (France) by defeating what we would today call a guerilla insurrection. How did he achieve peace? He slaughtered 1/3 of the population, enslaved 1/3 of the population and shipped them back to Rome, and the remaining 1/3 were happy to live under Roman authority. The point is this: What makes Hitler, Lenin/Stalin, Mao, The Japanese Imperialists, and Pol-Pot so utterly evil to us is not that they behaved in an uncharacteristically bad way. No, we are horrified that the rest of the world moved beyond its barbarous past, and they did not. They applied their medieval mindset using industrial war technology. The oppression that Native Americans were subjected to was not uncommon or excessive by the standards of the time. Only by today's standards do we find these barbarous acts to be appalling. We read the noble words in the Declaration of Independence and we are so dissapointed in our ancestors. But compared to other events around the globe between 1800 - 1900, the oppression of Native Americans was entirely reasonable. Throughout human history, barbarism and despicable brutality has been the rule, not the exception. Only within the last century has it become rare enough to be considered “beyond the pale”, and only in the most advanced of cultures. Given human nature, I doubt we have seen the last of genocide and industrial-level slaughter. It emerges with predictable regularity whenever there is a societal breakdown. Anyone who argues that the Human Race has evolved beyond barbarism, and that genocide is no longer a risk, is naïve at best… willfully myopic or delusional at the worst. Anyone who argues that "whites" have some kind of monopoly on barbarism is not a serious scholar. |
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May 1, 2013, 10:52 AM | #34 | |
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May 1, 2013, 11:47 AM | #35 | ||
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If you look at that history as if it were a slice of time you can find many examples that show the American Government wanted to assimilate the Indians and tried to assimilate them into our society. There are also times when good policies were executed poorly, ignored, or even worse. But if you open the window up to today you can't say that I am wrong because the facts of the day show otherwise. The woman who was offended by the bill board is an example with one reserved distinction, she want's to wear her heritage on her sleeve even though she herself has lived her entire life as a normal American citizen. Like so many, "I am special", "you owe me". She likes that card. And I'll say it again, it's not the sin we are supposed to carry, it's the lesson. Quote:
Wait and see, here in America see how the history plays out as Latin America's culture continues to gain influence on our own. There may be violence on a large scale or it may be a peaceful process, but one of them will win out although it may change some as well. What is left of the die-hard loser is extinction or relocation, voluntary or otherwise.
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May 1, 2013, 12:27 PM | #36 | |||
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And if you're at all familiar with urban Indian life, you'll agree that the success of "assimilation" is dubious at best. Poverty, illness, alcoholism, and violence are all too common in these communities; this doesn't speak well of the acceptance of Native Americans into mainstream culture.
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May 1, 2013, 01:25 PM | #37 | ||||||
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I offer exhibit A:
From the very article the OP posted this topic on. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...d-in-colorado/ Quote:
Exhibit B: Quote:
Here is the first. Exibit C: Quote:
The Treaty is basicly sell you land and take up new land with a pansion, or stay on as a US citizen and accept deeded land grants. Exhibit D: Quote:
Exhibit E: Quote:
The Seminoles that never left Florida were later set up with a reservation, basically that land they already claimed and hadn't been beaten out of. They existed that way and did nothing until about 1953 when they were told the Government was going to take back the reservation lands. In short, they got busy, they petitioned for time to organize, they created a government, and in essence created something that the federal government could recognize as a functional governed society possessing mechanisms for business, commonwealth, and growth. Through these efforts they have retained their reservation lands. Now if anyone actually bothers to read these then please take one more moment and read this from my earlier post. Quote:
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May 1, 2013, 01:49 PM | #38 |
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Holy cow! You are invoking the Trail of Tears as a "peaceable assimiliation"?
Speechless.
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May 1, 2013, 02:23 PM | #39 |
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You act like the Trail of Tears was always as bad as it was for the Cherokee and it was not, but it was also a choice and at the time how could anyone have not known what they were signing up for. Do you think they didn't know it was going to be a hard move?
According to that source the Choctaw accepted a peaceful offer of treaty, that offer included an offer of citizenship and deeded lands. Of 15,000 that moved, about 2,500 didn't make it. But 5,000 - 6,000 stayed behind and accepted citizenship. They were not treated well but this was more due to local prejudice and poor governance by the local governments then the federal Government. Once the Fed had what they wanted they did what the Fed always does, they forgot about it. But would it have been different if all 20,000 + had stayed behind? Would they have made the transition and had the numbers and support to weather the problems of that time? I can't tell you, and I am not saying all this was right. I am saying this is how the ball bounces. The native Americans were here, the white Europeans moved in, we kept our culture, we didn't change anymore then we had to. And when we had reached a point where we could influence the change we did. And that's how it will happen over and over if the newcomer isn't assimilated into the existing culture.
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May 1, 2013, 02:37 PM | #40 |
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Already covered here but, as a noisy sort with a penchant for history, I do wonder what group of humans have not, at some point, been decidedly nasty and even engaged in some manner of genocide.
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May 1, 2013, 02:37 PM | #41 | ||
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lcpiper --
You quote a portion of a Wikipedia article: Quote:
Quote:
I'm not going to bother with refuting every other out of context quote. |
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May 1, 2013, 02:45 PM | #42 |
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Not getting into political and racial arguments like some of the above, but I would like to add:
I am not Indian. I am married to an Indian woman. My child is considered Indian by her Tribe and the Federal Government. I live on the reservation. I work for the Tribe. Most people I encounter daily are Indian. (And they all call themselves Indian). That being clear, the picture on the billboard that the OP has posted here, has been circulating amongst my family and friends for years. They post in on their FB pages and twitter accounts with pride. Many of the Tribal members here are very liberal, but at the same time, very protective of their 2nd amendment rights. Their own Tribal history is not confused with their current gun freedoms. This picture does not offend them. I would bet that the persons protesting this picture have other motives than standing up for Native rights.
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May 1, 2013, 02:47 PM | #43 | |
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Ok, I am done with this BS.
I make a simple statement and I keep referring to it. I keep getting challenges to back support and back up the justifications to the examples to the junk you guys keep dragging back up. I didn't conveniently leave out anything, I pointed to what I had referenced as asked. I am not making an argument for anything except what I said to begin with and what I keep repeating. I will repeat it again. Quote:
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May 1, 2013, 03:01 PM | #44 |
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lcpiper, the problem is that history does not agree with you.
Little Big Horn resulted, ultimately, from the US not honoring treaty terms. To wit: gold was found in the Black Hills, so the US reneged on terms that had set aside that land to the Sioux and other tribes. |
May 1, 2013, 03:10 PM | #45 | |
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Edited: Forget it, forget all that stuff I let myself get drug into. I said what I said it the first post with this statement.
Quote:
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May 1, 2013, 03:12 PM | #46 |
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Now the issue becomes that in your quote, the minority avoiding assimilation is the newcomer, as opposed to the group being forced from its home.
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May 1, 2013, 03:20 PM | #47 |
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I am unsure what you are saying. I am aware that somewhere back there, while being accused and people reading into things about how they take exception to what I never said, I got turned around and found myself on the wrong side of my own statement.
If you apply my statement to the Native American history then the new culture that was not assimilated was the European culture. The Indians didn't absorb these people and integrate them into Indian culture. Then over time the European culture gained enough power to effect changes and it was the Indian Culture that was force to change instead.
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May 1, 2013, 03:25 PM | #48 |
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This premise assumes that "influencing" the host culture was a goal of the Europeans.
Generally, this was not so, aside from Catholic and other missionaries. The Spaniards typically viewed the host culture as a source of slave labor; the Anglos looked at them as savages to be fenced out, run off, or wiped out. The French sometimes viewed them as pawns to use against Anglos. None of the European powers seriously tried to gain political influence that did not originate from a gun barrel. |
May 1, 2013, 03:36 PM | #49 |
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No it doesn't. I tell you what MLeake, you start with my statement because that is where I started. then you debunk it if you can.
Please don't do like these others and layers stuff on top like a bull fighter with a cape then go after the stuff extraneous to the statement. In fact, please reread my initial post on this in it's entirety if you need a refresher as to what i am saying, then decide if there is something to argue over. OH, and influence takes many forms. Remember that statement by Clausewitz that "War is the continuation of Politik by other means"?
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May 1, 2013, 03:50 PM | #50 | |
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