223 crimp?

[ragwd]

Thanks for taking the time to read my thread. I have been reloading pistol cartridges for over a year, I have read ABC's of Reloading and the Horandy and the lymans reload books many times. This is my first time reloading any rifle cartridges. I did the inspection, then full length sizing, trimmed to length, deburred inside and outside of mouth, also deburred inside flashhole and since I was using once fired Lake City I reamed primer pocket to remove crimp also used a Primer Pocket Uniformer Tool. Then primed and loaded with powder then seated 55gr fmj bt using a Competition Full Length Rifle Die Set, 223 Remington. But it didnt include a crimp. Its a very nice set but doesnt crimp. So now the question, loading these for a semi auto (ar15) I need to crimp right? I did seat one too deep and had a heck of a time getting it out, it was really tight like it was crimped. So if I need to crimp, who makes a good one. I have used a Lymans factory crimp on some of my pistol cartridges, any other good ones out there? Thanks again and sorry for being so wordy.

[capbuster]

You will get alot of pros and cons on the topic of crimping for your ar15. I went for the crimp and purchased a die from Redding. I have been very pleased with my reloads for the semi auto 223.

[CJ7365]

I use a LEE factory crimp die, IMO it is the easiest method of crimping my .223 ammo for my AR. Although with the LEE dies, I can use the Bullet seating die to make a roll crimp, but I omit this and use the LEE crimp die

You want to crimp .223 ammo for AR because you do not want the action of the gun to affect your OAL of the cartidge, i.e. bullets geting pushed in, would cause overpressure issues

[mkl]

Crimping is not needed, and indeed may be detrimental to accuracy for the 223 cartridge. The only time a crimp is needed for rifle cartridges is when recoil causes the bullet to move in the case (seldom if ever in an AR), or in tabular magazines like the Win 94 if bullets are being hammered into the case.

The reason your bench rest (competition) dies don't crimp is that bench rest shooters don't crimp. If the competition guys think accuracy is better without a crimp, that's good enough for me.

If you must crimp, at least make up a few identical loads without the crimp and shoot them at the same time. See which gives better accuracy.

[jepp2]

I load for various AR's. I have had bullets get shoved deeper into the case from the bullet hitting the feed ramps, and I have had the bullet move forward due to the sudden stop of the cartridge shoulder hitting the front of the chamber. AR's have a rather violent chambering action. It is well described in this Sierra article:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm

Is the crimp detrimental to accuracy? I'm sure it is. But you are loading for an AR, not a bolt action. The easiest way to check if you need to or not. Let the firing action chamber a round, and take it out without firing and measure it. Compare the length with the previous measurement. If you find movement, that is going to be detrimental to accuracy also.

I didn't crimp when I first started loading for my AR's, but I put a light crimp now to reduce bullet movement. YMMV

[steve4102]

I use the Lee Factory crimp die for all my auto-loaders. It works well, keeps the bullet secure and in most instances Increases accuracy. I use the LFC on bullet with and without a cannelure. I have tested and compared it to non-crimped rouinds and I have yet to find the LFCD degrade accuracy.

Me, I crimp and my accuracy is as good if not better than non-crimped rounds. Give the LFCD a try, you may be surprised at how well it works. If not, it's only $10.

My Colt AR-15 at 100 yards. 52gr Nosler CC (no cannelure) crimped with the LFCD.

[ragwd]

Thanks to all for the replies.

[5R milspec]

if you do not want powder to spill out in the chamber after you let one slam home and you don't fire it you better crimp.even in a bolt gun its a pain when the bullet jumps out when you slam a round that is loaded long or in the lands and don't fire it.just makes me want to throw up watching money go down the drain.but hey thats life I guess.

no for me I would crimp for a black gun.would think thats the best thing to do.but hey this is just me old opinion.

[CJ7365]

QUOTE BY MKL

"Crimping is not needed, and indeed may be detrimental to accuracy for the 223 cartridge. The only time a crimp is needed for rifle cartridges is when recoil causes the bullet to move in the case (seldom if ever in an AR), or in tabular magazines like the Win 94 if bullets are being hammered into the case.

The reason your bench rest (competition) dies don't crimp is that bench rest shooters don't crimp. If the competition guys think accuracy is better without a crimp, that's good enough for me.

If you must crimp, at least make up a few identical loads without the crimp and shoot them at the same time. See which gives better accuracy."

He never said anything about Bench rest (compition) if fact he said this was the first time loading for an AR.

I believe by you telling him he does not have to crimp the bullets you are setting him up for failure, Bullets DO get set back in the AR by not crimping them, increasing presure

[steve4102]

Crimping is not needed, and indeed may be detrimental to accuracy for the 223 cartridge. The only time a crimp is needed for rifle cartridges is when recoil causes the bullet to move in the case (seldom if ever in an AR), or in tabular magazines like the Win 94 if bullets are being hammered into the case.

The experts at Sierra disagree.

Neck Tension

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. Some years ago, we decided to examine this phenomenon more closely. During tests here at Sierra’s range, we chambered a variety of factory Match ammunition in an AR-15 rifle. This ammunition was from one of the most popular brands in use today, loaded with Sierra’s 69 grain MatchKing bullet. To conduct the test, we chambered individual rounds by inserting them into the magazines and manually releasing the bolt. We then repeated the tests by loading two rounds into the magazine, chambering and firing the first, and then extracting and measuring the second round. This eliminated any potential variation caused by the difference between a bolt that had been released from an open position (first round in the magazine) and those subsequent rounds that were chambered by the normal semi-automatic operation of the rifle. Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.

To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension

No mention of recoil, only the violent cycling of the action.

[ragwd]

Thanks for EVERYONES post to the thread. Being so new to rifle reloading I will err on the side of safety until I get the experience needed to make the decision. I am looking at the Lee factory crimp, cheap enough but most places want as much for shipping as they do for the die. Oh well. I was thinking about taking calibers to the range to see what the effect was. Thanks again.

[MADISON]

There are two reasons to crimp a .223 Remmington.
[1] The round is to be used in a TUBULAR MAGAZINE.
[2] You just want to...
When I WANT TO crimp, I remove the decapping stim from the sizing die and re-adjust the die for taper crimping.

[gdcpony]

Thanks for EVERYONES post to the thread. Being so new to rifle reloading I will err on the side of safety until I get the experience needed to make the decision. I am looking at the Lee factory crimp, cheap enough but most places want as much for shipping as they do for the die. Oh well. I was thinking about taking calibers to the range to see what the effect was. Thanks again.

I would just get a 3-die set with it. Then you would have a spare die set for plinking rounds and just for leaving in the press for sizing.

[hapinga]

I crimp almost everything.competion shooters seat most bullets touching lands to get consistent pressure. most times you can not do that & fit them in magazine. lee factory crimp die is an excellent investment. most times it gives you more consistent pressure thus better accuracy. MY opinion.

show me someone who makes no mistakes,& I will show you someone who does not do anything.. David Edge
GOD bless ALL

[mkl]

I was thinking about taking calibers to the range to see what the effect was.

An excellent idea. Let us know if the bullets in your uncrimped loads move.

Since 80% of the posts on this thread disagree with my response, there is an excellent chance that I was giving you poor advice. Let me apologize in advance if that proves to be the case.

I was basing my reply on my personal experience which I will admit is limited to only two ARs: a Colt SP-1 and a Bushmaster heavy barrel target. I did use calipers to check for bullet movement, and I could find none in either of these rifles. Poor form to base an opinion on only two cases. I have a third AR which I have not tested for bullet movement; after this thread, be assured I'll take my calipers next time I take that rifle to the range.

I had not read the Sierra article that was quoted here. I'll be the first to admit they have a lot more expertise than I. Perhaps I was just lucky or have a couple of "gentle" ARs. Don't know why my bullets did not move, but I do know that was the case because I did use calipers to check.

My revised advice is to go with what the majority of the responses recommend (crimp), but do try four or five uncrimped and see if you get bullet movement and perhaps better accuracy.

Best wishes

mkl

[ragwd]

MKL, I will take a few uncrimped to the range and load them second in line, not to shoot them but eject them after they have been cycled in. I will post the results. Although this will take a few weeks as I am waiting for my factory crimp I ordered today. I do appreciate your post, you did it through your experience and thats what I was asking for. I am sure you posted in good faith and not in malice. Your apology shows a stand up attitude.
Best wishes
GWD