|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 9, 2021, 06:04 PM | #26 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||||
December 9, 2021, 07:11 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,875
|
Quote:
That may not be completely accurate do to the fog of war type of thing . It's been reported the school officials had seen the tweet or what ever it was of the student posting a pic of the firearm on social media . This may have been reported to them right after the shooting and it's simply been reported they knew about it but not said when they knew . To be honest I'm not following that case as close as others right now .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
|
December 10, 2021, 09:17 PM | #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,142
|
I had meant to post earlier in this thread, but other things got in the way.
First, some states still have common law crimes; i.e., crimes not defined by statute but which have elements well-defined by case law over many years. It was my understanding that Michigan's involuntary manslaughter offense is a common law offense. Frank's post #26 appears to confirm this. Most states have similar offenses to Michigan's, which are defined in some way based upon negligence, recklessness, or wantonness (extreme or gross negligence). These typically do not require the use of firearms at all, though some states may consider the use of firearms an aggravating factor. In my state, firing a gun up in the air without the bullet hitting anyone might simply be prosecuted as disturbing the peace. But, other facts may be present that changes that action into a more serious offense such as the offense of wanton murder; i.e., wanton conduct plus extreme indifference to human life resulting in a death. Wanton murder in my state has the same penalty as intentional murder (what some states call murder in the first degree). My state Supreme Court upheld a wanton murder conviction where the defendant fired his gun in the air. This provoked several unidentified persons to return fire, with one of the bullets striking and killing an innocent bystander. Here's a paragraph from the opinion that explains the result: Quote:
So, in answer to A.B.'s original question, the Michigan D.A. did not make up an offense. The entire set of publicly known facts arguably can support the charges without there being a specific law requiring safe storage of firearms from a minor. And, I would hazard a guess that if that was the only thing the parents allegedly did wrong, they would not be facing prosecution. But I could be wrong about that. |
|
December 10, 2021, 11:06 PM | #29 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,805
|
Quote:
There are certain limits, but school teachers and administrators are considered "in loco parentis" https://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...+loco+parentis In a nutshell they have the same rights as parents, and a parent does not have to get a warrant to search their kids room or belongings.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill |
|
December 11, 2021, 11:08 AM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,883
|
Did the school know the kid had access to a weapon ?
Quote:
|
|
December 11, 2021, 02:46 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 455
|
Good question. It seems to me that if they knew something was up and they had already previously asked the parents to pick the kid up and bring them home, then that would have sparked the sane mind to go start doing a locker search.
I was just thinking to myself about the rights of students in their personal belongings being searched without reasonable suspicion. That would tip me off as too far. But the lockers, yes I do see that. Their property, their rules. Kids didn’t rent them and sign a lease giving them at least some recourse if searched without notice. But back to the point of them maybe knowing something was up. To me that is a thin line to tread when it comes to searching students’ belongings. Does one think it is reasonable suspicion?? Or does that cross said line?? That they just say they have reasonable suspicion whenever they feel like searching students??? |
December 11, 2021, 03:40 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 1,119
|
Back in the 80's the police in my uncle's rural PA town started doing random locker searches with dogs looking for drugs. It made him furious. but it was legal. I knew his kids had nothing in their lockers, and I asked him why it made him so mad- "because they're being indoctrinated."
|
December 11, 2021, 05:17 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 1, 2021
Posts: 455
|
Yes I agree with that Mainah. The school board in my rural town in PA made it that the students had to be present when the lockers were opened, and an impartial 3rd party there to witness the search to make sure no funny business or railroading happened.
Searches NEVER came up with anything. The few kids who dealt in pot kept it either off campus or in their cars. Otherwise, the kids in this little farm town were pretty clean. Heaven forbid they found tobacco in an 18 year olds locker, the place was put on such a stupid lockdown over chew, you’d think it was a controlled substance!! While still illegal on school grounds, it was still an abusive practice of randomly searching three or so times a year. It eventually ended from backlash and lost class time. The indoctrination that the student’s shouldn’t take any initiative to be responsible for themselves, and that the school (government for us grown ups) is going to take care of you for you…. That is scary bad medicine!!! |
December 12, 2021, 10:41 AM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,450
|
Quote:
And now that I think about it, the only locker I can remember getting searched as a result of bringing dogs through the school was that of a teacher's kid. That was interesting to say the least. |
|
December 12, 2021, 03:24 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,875
|
I could see that maybe you can’t search the students person or backpack but would think the lockers can be searched at any time for any reason . The locker is not their’s and is provided to them by the school and the school never gives up ownership. Kinda like your supplied desk or computer from your employer ? Yes/no ???
That said and I know this is a slippery slope but who cares about the kids rights in this circumstance . If you feel that strongly he/she is that much of a threat . Search them and deal with the consequences later . Also as I stated earlier they always had the option to hold the student in the office until end of day then escort off campus .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
December 12, 2021, 04:51 PM | #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,883
|
Quote:
See Post #30 and http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ggu...ubsection%20(2). |
|
January 3, 2022, 04:41 AM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 626
|
While I'm certainly no attorney, there is something about this case particularly that has me bothered.
By charging the parents with negligence, isn't that a de facto admission by the prosecution that the person that pulled the trigger was not only a minor, but also not fully responsible for his own actions? And, if that's the case, dosen't the state have to try the shooter as a juvenile, and thus his punishment will be much less? |
January 3, 2022, 11:35 AM | #38 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
January 5, 2022, 12:29 AM | #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,652
|
Quote:
Now, if you know your friend intended to rob the store when you drove him there, you are an accessory as you assisted his criminal act. If you did not know, but then watched him rob the store and decided to drive him away, you are an accessory after the fact. Any overt act that aides another in committing a crime can be prosecuted. Merely being associated with the criminal actor, but providing no aid or assistance to the criminal act, cannot be criminally be prosecuted in 99% of cases. I could see how having a parent/child relationship could possibly open the parent up to a negligent killing/manslaughter charge, depending on what the parent knew and facts of the parents failing to take proper precautions to prevent their child from causing harm. If the child was not a minor, this likely would not be the case. Since he is, they can (in some circumstances) bear responsibility. I believe the DA has a VERY tall hurdle to jump here. Although, to be completely fair the parents did not help their case out at all by going on the run after it happened. This is absolutely a fact that will not sit well with any juror IMO.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946 |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|