The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 20, 2020, 06:50 PM   #1
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 905
Discreet Ultimate Urban Carbine

When people see the AR15 most think you are a bad person for owning one, but they see a lever action in 357Mag or 44Mag and laugh at the old man.

In the 1800’s 2 firearms chambered for the same round had a lot of merit. Today with the onslaught of black rifles (AR-15’s) from just about every firearm manufacturer, the lever action carbine has lost most of it’s popularity. If you do a simple search for home defense rifle, SHTF rifle almost all results will lead you to some sort of black rifle or potentially shotgun. Though I love my AR15’s and have become very familiar with them over the past 30 years, gaining most of my knowledge while serving in the United States Marine Corps. I still appreciate the benefits of the pistol caliber lever action carbine or what I often refer to as the Discreet Urban Carbine.

The Marlin 1894 Carbine in the right hands is still a very formidable opponent for home defense and SHTF situations. In the right hands simply means like any rifle, shotgun or pistol you must train with it and become proficient with it. I would argue the Marlin Lever action requires less training time than an AR15 or at least it did for my family. I showed my daughter the loading gate the working of the action and she was off and running, with a big smile on her face.


https://youtu.be/R0lEuoBWFPI
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old September 20, 2020, 06:54 PM   #2
musicmatty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2009
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 259
Great choice in my opinion

musicmatty is offline  
Old September 20, 2020, 07:51 PM   #3
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 905
What caliber you got there Music Matty?
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old September 20, 2020, 07:52 PM   #4
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,127
Lever guns could work in a pinch for urban defense. Or offense for that matter. The .30/30, .357 and .44 Mag are effective enough. They are certainly better than nothing. Their shortcomings include limited magazine capacity and of course, the difficulty and slowness of reloading.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old September 20, 2020, 08:48 PM   #5
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,454
Quote:
Their shortcomings include limited magazine capacity and of course, the difficulty and slowness of reloading.
Firepower, meaning suppressive fire, volume of fire and onboard ammo capacity is the popular fantasy of our age. Realistically, it belongs in the realm of fantasy action heroes and military usage.

Remember that, as private citizens, DEFENDING ourselves, we are still legally responsible for every round we fire. So, there is that, to consider. And while chuck/arnold & stallone et.al can blaze away remember those are movies, and FICTION.

A Marlin carbine hold 9 .357s in the tube, or 10 .38s, and even the "lowly" .38 special is something else from a carbine. And, of course the difficulty and slowness of reloading is somewhat offset by the ability to "top up/reload the magazine at any time, with the rifle still "in action".

Additionally, the manually operated lever gun avoids all legal restrictions on semi automatics.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 20, 2020, 09:16 PM   #6
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 3,984
My DUC is a 45acp AR pistol, 8" barrel, Sig Red Dot, carbine stock, and Glock 13rd Mags. Also found some 23rd mags that work fine with Golden Sabres or Hydra Shok.
__________________
22LR, 223, 243, 6.5GR, 260R, 6.5-06, 280R, 7mmRM, 300HAM'R, 308, 30-06, 338-06, 9mm, 357M, 41M, 44SPL, 44M, 45 Colt, 450BM.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old September 20, 2020, 10:29 PM   #7
musicmatty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2009
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 259
Quote:
What caliber you got there Music Matty?


Something is better than nothing...


musicmatty is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 05:03 AM   #8
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,624
I have matching levers and revolvers in both .357 and .41. Both levers are Henry’s, .357 is a 4” GP100, and both a 6” and 4” model 57’s in .41. Hunting wise I’d use the .41, but for overall versatility the .357 gets the nod. As soon as things die down I’m hoping to add the Henry .357 carbine with the polymer stock and side loading gate.
jetinteriorguy is online now  
Old September 21, 2020, 06:47 AM   #9
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
When people see the AR15 most think you are a bad person for owning one, but they see a lever action in 357Mag or 44Mag and laugh at the old man
In my experience, the only ones who think the way you describe are Fudds.
In the eyes of the typical non-gun owner... all guns are bad.
And the population of those types is growing.

As for the platform...
If I could only keep one long gun it would be one of my 357 lever actions.
357 Magnum out of a carbine is usually going to be more effective & versatile than a 556.
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 07:02 AM   #10
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,835
My understanding is that lever guns are actually surging strongly in popularity--and that was even before the end-of-the-world-pandemic-election-killer-hordes-zombie-apocalypse-buying-frenzy. To me, the lever is the ultimate in classic woods hunting firearm. That said, If I have to get in a fight I'd gladly take my AR with modern optic and magazines over a lever every time.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; September 21, 2020 at 07:10 AM.
stagpanther is online now  
Old September 21, 2020, 07:26 AM   #11
Warhammer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2009
Location: North Texas
Posts: 148
Quote:
In my experience, the only ones who think the way you describe are Fudds.
In the eyes of the typical non-gun owner... all guns are bad.
And the population of those types is growing.
I agree. Gun owners buying into, or even perpetuating, the negative stereotype of modern sporting rifles always bothers me.

I think lever guns are really cool! But as for choosing one for SHTF duty, the reason so few choose them is because there are so many better choices. No openly carried rife is discrete. So once you feel the need to pull out a long gun in public, black rifle vs wood stocked hunting gun is a moot point. Go ahead and "cowboy up" if that's what tickles your fancy, but there are much better tools for the job of dealing with urban unrest. Imagine if Kyle Rittenhouse had needed to lever another round into the chamber while on his back being attacked by multiple assailants trying to pull the rifle from his hands. Tools aren't a replacement for training, but all other factors equal, you can't turn a mule into a racehorse. The right training AND the right tools are a winning combination.

For discretion, a PCC, AR pistol, or even my AK with a folding stock will travel incognito better than 38" long carbine. (I have a very NON-tactical looking backpack for discrete rifle carry.) For capacity and reloading, any of the above wins again. If a high volume of fire is needed in a tense situation, again the lever gun looses. That said, if I was in a bad situation and my classic cowboys guns were all I had access to, I'd certainly rather have them at hand than a sharp stick. But the only advantages a lever gun and revolver have are the classic aesthetics. For straight up fictionality and efficiency if things really went south, I'll take more modern weapons every time.

Last edited by Warhammer; September 21, 2020 at 07:35 AM.
Warhammer is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 08:01 AM   #12
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 2,992
Lever actions are cool and may work for more open areas. They are definitely not discreet. Long guns in general are not discreet.

Have you seed the hordes in Portland, Chicago, or Kenosha? One is better off with a Glock and a few 33 rd sticks.

The last thing you want to do is run around with a long gun in an urban civil unrest situation, much less one that has low capacity and takes a 30 seconds to load if you manage to not drop any rounds 'cause your hands are shaking.
__________________
Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 08:23 AM   #13
musicmatty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2009
Location: Eastcoast
Posts: 259
[QUOTE][The last thing you want to do is run around with a long gun in an urban civil unrest situation, much less one that has low capacity and takes a 30 seconds to load if you manage to not drop any rounds 'cause your hands are shaking./QUOTE]

Very true. However, I like that you can keep topping off a lever action through its side gate or a pump action shotgun underneath as you go along. Personally, a 12 gauge pump action would be my first choice going out the door into a hostile situation.
musicmatty is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 08:49 AM   #14
COSteve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2009
Posts: 1,336
I've got ARs but don't like them. I've also got a Mini-14 as well as an M1 Carbine that are both much better for my uses, i.e. no fantasy offensive operations as all civilian weapons are only legal for defensive use. (44 AMP said it best above.)

I also have leverguns in .22lr, .357mag, .45 Colt, 30-30, 300 Savage, and .308. Depending upon the situation, all but the .22lr are viable candidates in a HD or SD scenario. My HD weapon of choice? M1 Carbine. The AR's are last on my list.
__________________
Steve

“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.” - Confucius
"When you find a find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it." - Dilbert
COSteve is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 09:19 AM   #15
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,835
Quote:
The AR's are last on my list.
Not me, but then I do much better with run and gun with my AR's so I feel pretty confident getting body hits out to 100 yds quickly, at least more so than a lever gun, all of my levers are either stock buckhorn sights or narrow field of vision scout scope which while quite effective I can't be nearly as fast with to acquire with confidence. Inside the house--completely different story, I'll probably reach for a high-capacity handgun instead knowing range will be 10 yds or less. I would say lever guns were the assault rifles of their day, I love em too.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is online now  
Old September 21, 2020, 09:57 AM   #16
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,475
As an old soldier I would not "run around" in a civil unrest situation, I would either stay on my own property-stay inside since "brandishing" has become such a heinous offense, or pick positions with a reasonable amount of cover and where I could not easily be flanked and from which I could make a quick getaway. And as an old soldier I know the most important thing is to incapacitate an enemy, take them out of the fight.
An excellent combo is the Marlin 9MM Camp Carbine with an S&W M659-same magazines and the Marlin 45 with a 1911-same thing.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 12:23 PM   #17
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,275
"...they see a lever action..." Most of 'em, if they're old enough, think cowboys. Levers, that are far from 'discreet', do not bring a lot of unwanted attention any battle rifle does.
However, like AMP says, you ain't going into combat in a movie.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 02:39 PM   #18
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,835
Quote:
As an old soldier I would not "run around" in a civil unrest situation, I would either stay on my own property-stay inside since "brandishing" has become such a heinous offense, or pick positions with a reasonable amount of cover and where I could not easily be flanked and from which I could make a quick getaway. And as an old soldier I know the most important thing is to incapacitate an enemy, take them out of the fight.
An excellent combo is the Marlin 9MM Camp Carbine with an S&W M659-same magazines and the Marlin 45 with a 1911-same thing.
I'm not a vet and have never trained with one--but I have been in an urban firing zone when live bullets were flying and impacting near me--so yes--I ran--as fast as I could to get behind a tree or wall.I can verify a massive adrenaline dump and over-excited state of mind, especially after seeing a guy across the street get drilled at nearly point blank range, saw the bullet go through his front side and out his back.

BTW--my first instinct was not deploy a weapon--which I could have done--but to call the police and give detailed coordinates of time of incident, number of people, what they wearing and size, vehicles involved, directions vehicles were traveling on what roads etc. They had everyone including those in the get-away vehicle in custody very quickly.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; September 22, 2020 at 05:38 AM.
stagpanther is online now  
Old September 21, 2020, 06:10 PM   #19
Mr.RevolverGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 905
Stag -- Sigshr I agree

If there is one thing I learned from a few Marine Force Recon brethren. It is best to operate in Silence and stealth avoiding at all cost engagement and giving away your position unless absolutely necessary or your mission is a Black mission which requires engagement. Again reinforcing for me like everyone is saying chose the right tool for the job. I for one choose to avoid those conflict situations involving escalation and firearms it's just better to walk away, or like STAG RUN AND HIGH TAIL IT OUT OF THERE. Just don't turn your back

BUT Discreet means = to avoid causing offense or to gain an advantage, intentionally unobtrusive. It does not mean concealment or being unseen or out of sight etc. Neither did I say this was my choice when SHTF, though I can see the need for a lever action in situations I could possibly find myself in and we should not under estimate it. Like SigSHR on my property where no one else should be, if confronted use the tools at hand to fight my way to a better one or neutralize the threat.

Neither did I say I was John Wayne or have any desire to be like him, I won't digress here. Though I have seen first hand just a regular guy no cowboy professional shooter put 5 shots on two targets in under 4 seconds consistently.
__________________
Mr.Revolverguy
http://www.dayattherange.com
Firearms Reviewed and Reported On: An unbiased opinion with real world use.
Mr.RevolverGuy is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 07:38 PM   #20
gaseousclay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2010
Posts: 1,025
I love lever guns and to be honest, I never liked AR’s until the rioting started. From a tactical perspective, I’d rather have something with larger ammo capacity and extra mags in case a hoard of zombies is hell bent on killing me. But, my first choice will always be to get as far away from the danger as possible. If I only had a lever gun at my disposal then I would use it, but if I had to pick between a lever gun or AR in a defensive situation I’d pick the AR every time, or handgun. I most definitely would not go out looking for a fight, but if someone brought the fight to me I think i’d stand a better chance of surviving if I’m adequately armed.
gaseousclay is offline  
Old September 21, 2020, 07:42 PM   #21
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,499
I carried a levergun in my trunk when i lived in Cali. As soon as i moved to a free state..it was replaced with an AR.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old September 22, 2020, 06:19 AM   #22
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,624
I have a Just Right Carbine take down model. You can get a back pack designed to carry it and some mags. If needed just pop the barrel on and screw down the barrel shroud and pop in a 32 round Glock mag and you have .357mag power in a 9mm ready to go. Out to 50yds fast accurate engagment with a red dot is easy peasy.
jetinteriorguy is online now  
Old September 22, 2020, 07:37 AM   #23
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
My understanding is that lever guns are actually surging strongly in popularity
As best as I can tell its largely because people are seeing the "evil guns" ban that is on the horizon
Both new owners not wanting to get trapped, and existing gun owners diversifying
Prices of capable "hedge weapons" such as pump-action rifles like the Timberwolf, R7600, and lever actions... along lower capacity semi-autos like the Model 44 have been climbing and get snapped up quickly.
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old September 22, 2020, 08:02 AM   #24
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhammer View Post
If a high volume of fire is needed in a tense situation
If you've placed yourself in such situation... you've already lost.
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old September 22, 2020, 10:45 AM   #25
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,475
I think lever guns-like revolvers-are better for beginners, require more active involvement and participation and thought by the shooter. Like learning to drive with a manual transmission. And again-it's only the hits that count.
SIGSHR is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09985 seconds with 8 queries