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Old June 7, 2017, 09:26 AM   #76
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by A J
I'm just gonna shoot like crazy until the attacker falls.....
That is beyond stupid.
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Old June 7, 2017, 10:03 AM   #77
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A J: I'm just gonna shoot like crazy until the attacker falls. Later... I will reflect and be forever haunted by any innocents that were struck by my pass-through bullets.
Quote:
Frank Ettin: That is beyond stupid.
Yes, it is. I have to question your purpose in such a tactic. It certainly isn't minimizing death and injury to innocent people, or doing the greatest good for the greatest number. Your motive for such action will certainly be questioned, and you very might well be doing your reflection from a prison cell.
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Old June 7, 2017, 10:44 AM   #78
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That is beyond stupid
While I am concerned about the statement itself a follow-up concern is making such a statement to mindset on a public forum to be later used as evidence in any number of circumstances.
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Old June 7, 2017, 11:09 AM   #79
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I almost responded to A_J when I read his post yesterday. I decided to follow the sage advice given me long ago, "argue with a fool, and you're liable to act like one." My guess is the remark was meant to be funny in its sarcasm. It certainly is not, and it violates the strenuously enforced rule of never advocating illegal conduct on this board in my opinion.
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Old June 7, 2017, 02:20 PM   #80
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All you enlightened, chest thumping, armchair commandos failed to quote my second sentence. You know, the one about "saving lives".
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Old June 7, 2017, 02:47 PM   #81
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All you enlightened, chest thumping, armchair commandos failed to quote my second sentence. You know, the one about "saving lives".
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You need to eliminate the threat first and foremost. Everything else is secondary
You mean one of your secondary concerns? The fact that it is not the primary concern and your tactics stated tell me what I need to know of your mindset.

You also have failed to address the psychic abilities that allow you to know where the bullets are going through and how many people will be injured or killed by your tactics vs the attacker. In the case of the Portland train the number for the attacker was 2. I am willing to bet your methods create more victims and thus reject the argument that you are "saving lives".

Last edited by Lohman446; June 7, 2017 at 03:06 PM.
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Old June 7, 2017, 03:53 PM   #82
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A J
All you enlightened, chest thumping, armchair commandos failed to quote my second sentence. You know, the one about "saving lives".
That statement is also preposterous. How many innocent lives will you be destroying by "shooting like crazy"?

In addition, everyone, and you, should be reminded of this post in which you admit that you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by A J
...hardly ever practice with my carry revolvers.....
So not only will you be "shooting like crazy" but also your proficiency is questionable.

Such conduct could easily be characterized as reckless. You could easily be more of a threat to the innocent people you claim to be trying to protect than you're likely to be to the assailant. Your plan, as you describe it, is indeed not well calculated to save innocent lives.

There's an adage from the practice of medicine which we should reflect on: "First, do no harm."
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 7, 2017 at 09:53 PM. Reason: correct typo
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Old June 7, 2017, 05:19 PM   #83
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It's too easy to get a false sense of our skills, especially if all practice is at a range where there's nary a thought required of where bullets go after hitting the targets.
We know they will be stopped by the huge backstop.
So there's no danger from them going though, wide, high, low or anywhere else as long as they stay in the range.
The real world is different.
As the saying goes, "we own every round fired."
Scary thought, eh wot?
Training requires many compromises for the sake of safety.
So how can we train to get a realistic sense of things?
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Old June 7, 2017, 08:56 PM   #84
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I'm not even going to pretend that I'm an expert. I'm good, I'm fast, I'm accurate on paper and some active targets. I really don't want to find myself in these circumstances, but God may put me there anyway. There are a lot of times that I wish I could have been there.

Being able to react, draw, get off enough rounds to stop a threat is the absolute bare minimum that prepares one for armed combat.

I would really like it if I knew that I wouldn't blow it when necessary. I screwed the pooch on an occasional deer,only a complete, absolutely delusional doofus could believe that his performance under pressure will be perfect. no novice shooter should get cocky. Hearing that shot behind you isn't like hearing a buzzer at the range.

There are people who are absolutely convinced that stress will imbue them with greater skills.

Read the poem about Casey going to bat.
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Old June 8, 2017, 07:00 AM   #85
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There are people who are absolutely convinced that stress will imbue them with greater skills.
Isn't that the truth.
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Old June 8, 2017, 07:55 AM   #86
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Has it ever worked for you? Not necessarily, probably. Reflexes are very different from deliberate action. I can knock a glass off of my kitchen counter and catch it with my foot, just a couple days ago I dropped a skillet and jumped before it hit the ground. When I dropped a gallon of paint, catching it was an unfortunate mistake.

If I try to do something, for example, draw and fire on a signal, well, I'd be the red shirt. That doesn't mean that I can't have good days, it means that I might even drop the thing when the crunch comes.
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Old June 8, 2017, 10:44 PM   #87
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Adrenaline can work for you, or very much against you.

You'll never know for sure until you are in a real life & death shootout.

Paper targets and/or active targets ain't the real world. Not even close...........
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Old June 9, 2017, 06:22 AM   #88
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Adrenaline can work for you, or very much against you.

You'll never know for sure until you are in a real life & death shootout.
Can you show me where adrenaline increases fine motor skills and situational awareness? Can adrenaline work for you? Sure it can. But countless years of evolution have assured that the flight or fight response is geared towards large muscle groups as well as increasing selective attention ("tunnel vision") neither of which are exactly useful in engaging an attacker in a crowded area in a dynamic situation that others, such as uniformed officers, are almost certainly responding to as well.

Think about it. Training aside do you want the rookie officer who is on his or her first response to a life threatening situation or the "hardened" officer who has seen situations like this before dozens of times in his or her career? I want the hardened officer not only because of his or her experience but because of his or her likely ability to combat or lesson the impact of the adrenaline rush on his or her actions and decisions.
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Old June 9, 2017, 02:12 PM   #89
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Can you show me where adrenaline increases fine motor skills and situational awareness?
If you are looking for a published study, I can't give you one. I can tell you from five decades as a performing musician and teacher, though, that there is always an adrenaline release, and the difference between a good performance and a poor one is often what you do with the adrenaline. When a musician lets it get the best of them, it is called stage fright, and they don't perform well. When a musician learns to channel that same chemistry into concentration and attention, it can help them excel.
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Old June 9, 2017, 02:29 PM   #90
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When a musician learns to channel that same chemistry into concentration and attention, it can help them excel.
Giving you your premise still makes the argument that training or, better yet experience, is vital. The "adrenaline will make the difference" is often used by people who forgo proper training and preparation as if it is some magical thing.
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Old June 9, 2017, 02:30 PM   #91
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While adrenalin can help focus, it won't impart skills that you lack. All the adrenalin in town won't help you play an oboe if you're a drummer.
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Old June 9, 2017, 02:33 PM   #92
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While adrenalin can help focus, it won't impart skills that you lack. All the adrenalin in town won't help you play an oboe if you're a drummer.
And that oboe or drummer player is dealing with a situation that he or she has practiced for and concentrating closely on the task at hand is beneficial. While one must concentrate on the task at hand in a self defense matter too much concentration can be detrimental if one misses changes in the dynamic situation such as multiple attackers or other "good Samaritans" or officers responding.
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Old June 9, 2017, 03:55 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by jdc1244
And the logical question would be: why - particularly when the person pulling out his CCW doesn't know why.

There is also the very legitimate school of thought that the purpose of carrying a concealed firearm is for lawful self-defense, not to act in the capacity of ‘law enforcement.’

In such a situation, if one is carrying a concealed firearm, his appropriate recourse is to seek safety, not attempt to intervene, rendering the “this could've been stopped if people had been armed/thank goodness nobody had a gun that day” ‘argument’ moot.
Par. 1: The "why" is because a guy with a machete is chopping up unarmed people.

Par. 2: Yes, lawful self-defense, but the laws of (I think) every state provide that an individual is legally entitled to use the same degree of force in defense of a third party as he/she is allowed to use in defense of him/herself.

Par.3: For many the response will be to retreat, and that's a personal and subjective decision. On the other hand, the NRA has been saying for years that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, and we've seen that proven many, many times since Wayne LaPierre first uttered those words. I don't see the fact that a bad buy may be wielding a machete rather than a Glock as significantly altering the equation. Intervening may not be the appropriate response in all situations, but neither is bugging out appropriate in all situations.
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Old June 9, 2017, 04:00 PM   #94
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Adrenaline can work for you, or very much against you.

You'll never know for sure until you are in a real life & death shootout.


Can you show me where adrenaline increases fine motor skills and situational awareness? Can adrenaline work for you? Sure it can. But countless years of evolution have assured that the flight or fight response is geared towards large muscle groups as well as increasing selective attention ("tunnel vision") neither of which are exactly useful in engaging an attacker in a crowded area in a dynamic situation that others, such as uniformed officers, are almost certainly responding to as well.

Think about it. Training aside do you want the rookie officer who is on his or her first response to a life threatening situation or the "hardened" officer who has seen situations like this before dozens of times in his or her career? I want the hardened officer not only because of his or her experience but because of his or her likely ability to combat or lesson the impact of the adrenaline rush on his or her actions and decisions.


That's why I said it can work for you or against you. It's all about experience and managing it.

I'm retired LEO with 30 yrs. of service. Adrenaline is a fact of life. You either make it your ally or your enemy.

As a cop, there's a lot of hurdles you must overcome to be effective. If not, you could lose your life, or cost someone else theirs.
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Old June 9, 2017, 04:19 PM   #95
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Continuing with that line of thought, the cop who's had hundreds of adrenaline rushes is going to develop a higher baseline for what get's his adrenaline going. The citizen with a CCW may be a better shot, but how well does he manage the adrenaline? What is his experience making split second decisions under extreme stress? If you're planning on taking a shot in a crowd of people it's good to know what your limits are.

.
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Old June 9, 2017, 06:26 PM   #96
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Continuing with that line of thought, the cop who's had hundreds of adrenaline rushes is going to develop a higher baseline for what get's his adrenaline going. The citizen with a CCW may be a better shot, but how well does he manage the adrenaline? What is his experience making split second decisions under extreme stress? If you're planning on taking a shot in a crowd of people it's good to know what your limits are.


It's not always about who's a better shot. Being a good shot is important, I think we can all agree on that. But, just as important, is to know when to take that shot. Legally or otherwise.

People develop adrenaline baselines differently. That's really not the crux of the issue.

The average citizen (armed or not) is easy pickings for getting caught off-guard. They go about their day doing what they do and don't expect anything abnormal.

The police officer reporting in for duty is gearing up for his shift, and he/she knows that it can be anything but normal. That's where the education, training and experience comes into play.

Speaking for myself, I can't begin to count the number of adrenaline rushes I've had while working. But, I can and will say this. I never once took any for granted, or felt that they became run of the mill and affected me in some way as to make me less effective. Each and every one was a continuing learning experience.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make, is that it doesn't boil down to just one issue or ability. It's a multitude of training and life experiences that dictate how it all plays out.

You can be the best shot in the nation. But, if you freeze under pressure while someone is pointing a gun at you, it's all for naught. You could be a poor shot, but you don't freeze and you are able to fire back. At least you are able to engage the situation.
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Old June 9, 2017, 08:15 PM   #97
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the cop who's had hundreds of adrenaline rushes is going to develop a higher baseline for what gets his adrenaline going.
That would seem to be the goal.
Adrenaline is not your friend unless maybe if you're being chased up a tree by a Grizzly.
Otherwise it can cause more excitement than you need.
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Old June 9, 2017, 08:35 PM   #98
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While adrenalin can help focus, it won't impart skills that you lack.
Why would you assume someone lacks the skills needed to hit a man sized target at close range?

If one doesn't possess the skills, they shouldn't be armed in the first place, so the whole discussion is pointless.

Everyone says "train, train, train" and then says "don't shoot, you have no skills".
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Old June 9, 2017, 09:36 PM   #99
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While adrenalin can help focus, it won't impart skills that you lack.

Why would you assume someone lacks the skills needed to hit a man sized target at close range?

If one doesn't possess the skills, they shouldn't be armed in the first place, so the whole discussion is pointless.

Everyone says "train, train, train" and then says "don't shoot, you have no skills".



More people then not, are armed and don't possess the proper skills.


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Old June 10, 2017, 05:11 AM   #100
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More people then not, are armed and don't possess the proper skills.
And yet people use firearms successfully to defend themselves over a million times each year. It's really not as hard as some like to imply if those numbers are real.
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