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Old February 1, 2011, 09:44 PM   #51
X_shooter
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B.N.Real had it right. Call 911 and prepare for the worst. You don't know their intentions. You don't know their capabilities. You don't know if you can take one punch, or three, or twenty before you start to black out and he takes your gun and finishes you off. There is no reset, no do over, no referee to determine that he is getting the upper hand and throws a flag to indicate now your life is in danger. You can't say I wish he would beat me more so I can shoot him and end this. You can't say if he hits me one more time I'm going to start getting serious.

This isn't best two out of three or a match of fisticuffs. This isn't a fist fight in the playground after school. You have no idea how far it can escalate and if you care about your own safety you need to defend yourself. It is crazy to tell someone to take a beating becuase its against the law to shoot someone to defend themself. Dead is dead. It doesn't matter if he gets a lucky shot with his fist, a bottle, a brick, a knife, a boot, or a club. Any of those can cause permanent damage and even death. If you guys are going to take your chances and see how much you can take, please put me in your will.
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Old February 2, 2011, 01:32 AM   #52
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+1 for dial 911.. When I picked up my gun, I put my ego down.

When I was taking martial arts years ago a little ole grandma hit me about 4 or 5 times and had me on the ground before I knew what the heck was going on. Now, at the time I was young and about 150 lbs and very full of my self. (I too had been in my share of altercations.) I came to a very quick conclusion as I got older / grew up. You just don't know. So don't fight unless it is the last option.

1. Carry everywhere
2. Keep the knife handy
3. Keep the cell phone handy

Plan A. - Walk, Run - Get away if at all possible. (Call police.)
Plan B. - Call the police and try to talk the idiot down.
Plan C. - Win at ALL COSTS.

I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. JMHO.
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Old February 2, 2011, 02:52 AM   #53
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If I have bad intentions for you and you allow me to get a clean punch on you I don't think you will be pulling and if you do I will be on top of you and not rocked.
Now that would be stupid. Why would I allow you to get a clean punch on me or why would you let me get a clean punch on you?

Oh, maybe you would get in a clean punch when I attempted to call 911.

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I have a right NOT to be beaten by someone. ... Just because the bad guy refuses to comply doesn't mean I have to accept the beating.
While you have the right to not be beaten or to accept a beating, it doesn't mean that you can use lethal force, especially since you have self professed punch and grapple prowess.

Quote:
I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. JMHO.
Of late, I have gotten a kick out of the use of that statement. We like to use it as a justification for our actions that might be legal, borderline legal or illegal as we would rather be alive and potentially jailed rather than being killed. However when situations have occurred and are discussed here, there is considerable talk about how the shooter was a moron and acted stupidly outside of the law when the shootings are questionable.
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Old February 2, 2011, 05:50 AM   #54
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fight

as someone said dont remember where dont mess with an old man he cant run ,he cant fight chances are he will just shoot you. 73 here and always armed where legal.
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Old February 2, 2011, 01:21 PM   #55
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Yea, it's a little disappointing how much the law protects the bad guys and criminals to the extent of even persecuting the victims. I'm amazed sometimes at why we care so much about the life and well being of some of these low lifes. You're watching a low life drive away with your car (cause you can't shoot him) and he isn't even a car thief ... you're watching him steal your car and yet he is only an alleged car thief because he hasn't been convicted yet.

On the up side though, I think MN has some of the best gun laws in the country. Easy for a good citizen to buy whatever they want, a few extra road blocks to stop the criminals. You need a permit to purchase a handgun. Easy to get if your clean (and it's free), but it blocks quite a number of sales each year that would have gone through on the Fed check.
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Old February 2, 2011, 08:25 PM   #56
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I do agree with you however a fist fight dos not justify deadly force. I wouldn't pretend to expect any one to just take the beating. But I would hope we have the self controll and dicipline to handle it as a fist fight not a gun fight and in the end accept the fact you might be the one with the beating but not with out a fight. Our guns should be to protect our life we can not take the mind set of a school yard kid ...... who has the bigger stick. We have to accept some times in life we are on the loosing end of a fight and thats just life. Im not tryin to say you are acting like a child please dont misunderstand.
This isn't a school yard. Grown men have the power to really hurt you. Some are younger and stronger. Some better trained. Some simply more violent. I have decided that I no longer wish to fight with fists for the above mentioned reasons. I will however do everything humanly possible to avoid confrontation including retreating or apologizing (even if not wrong).

That said nobody is going to beat me up. Hopefully all the avoidance will continue to defuse the rare occasions. If they fail hopefully the sight of my firearm will end the confrontation. If all else has failed.....I will not be beaten.

I hope this clarifies.

As a side note I don't think you give the gravity of just how viciously you can be beaten in a "fist fight". I hope you never find out.
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Old February 2, 2011, 08:50 PM   #57
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While you have the right to not be beaten or to accept a beating, it doesn't mean that you can use lethal force, especially since you have self professed punch and grapple prowess.
You can use lethal force to prevent death or grave bodily injury.

I can handle myself pretty well. Punching power and ground skills does not a fighter make. I have a 30 second window on the ground before I get tired (really tired like bring some O2). I've got 10-15 full power combinations before my chest goes up in flames.

I would have a better chance than most and I still feel that it is a bad idea to fist fight. It is ignorant to do so IMO.

Quote:
Now that would be stupid. Why would I allow you to get a clean punch on me or why would you let me get a clean punch on you?

Oh, maybe you would get in a clean punch when I attempted to call 911.
It was a what if. You have chosen to fight expect to get hit. If I am better or get lucky you are beat. Fights occur at contact distances.....easy to get hit close up last I checked.

My point was by the time you realize you are loosing its likely to late to deploy your weapon. Now you are beaten at at mercy.
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Old February 2, 2011, 11:21 PM   #58
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Karate? Slamaty......

Martial Arts training? Ah, no..... Unless you practice constantly Martial Arts training will most likely get you hurt and hurt bad. I have seen little kids with Black Belts. It really depends on your instructor. Luckily, the instructor I had years back spent time on the Kata's and such, (very pretty, like figure skating competition) and spent an equal amount of time on just plain "Street Fight". He had been a body guard for Diana Ross... etc and knew that threats where not defended by some fancy moves. The karate moves are great since they are a trained response and help. I just can't help but tell others when someone says.... "One good ______. Fill in the blank and hes down. Sorry. You may miss, you may get a partial hit and then really **** him off. I was trained. The last altercation I had I managed to incapacitate someone but still took a hit to a tooth that had to be extraced and replaced at some cost. No one "wins" a fight. Especially with one, kick, punch, etc. Mostly BS from the people that want to sign you up.
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Old February 3, 2011, 12:46 PM   #59
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Hey, I walk with crutches. I'm not, no way on God's green earth, going to allow anyone to get that first punch in on me prior to drawing my weapon if I can help it. I'd be on the ground and helpless. I will, and have, shout "I'm armed, stay back". If they proceed I will, and have, show my weapon. If they still proceed i will, and have, point my weapon. If they still proceed I will shoot. No ifs ands or buts. I made these decissions long ago and feel completely justified in this response.
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Old February 3, 2011, 01:00 PM   #60
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But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
You can't legally shoot the BG, since your life isn't in immediate danger. If the BG moved closer towards you with a weapon or clinched fists, then that is when you scream at the top of your lungs "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT!!!"...if the BG doesn't heed the command to stop, then you have legal rights to shoot him/her.

If it was me and the BG just trapped me into an ally and wasn't really making a move, I would either call the COPS or try to find an exit.

If I was unarmed-which I am at times-I would whip out some Krav Maga on the thug in the event I felt my life was in immediate danger.
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Old February 3, 2011, 02:00 PM   #61
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When we use lethal force we are taking a risk of ruining our lives, meaning that the result of not using lethal force should be equal to or worse than the death penalty, a prison sentence or a drawn out legal battle that could leave you jobless and broke. If you have time to ask yourself "is this legal?", then you probably are in a no-shoot situation.
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Old February 3, 2011, 02:18 PM   #62
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If it appears to be an even match, and there's no way out, just fight the guy. A good fight every once in a while is good for the soul. I would be nervous about fighting with a gun on me though, because they could grab the gun, or it could get scratched. If I feel like someone is going to kill me, they are getting shot, I'll worry about the law after I worry about my life. The question was a little vague, there are way to many varibles that could come into play.
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Old February 3, 2011, 02:22 PM   #63
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Just my .02$- (.01$ after our Dear Leader gets his cut)

I am 53 years old and disabled. I stand 5'10" and about 190.(Should be about 175) In my earlier days, I could give a fair account of myself in a fight. Not so anymore. I have two sons, Hal is 6'2" and 325lbs, Aaron is 6'6" and 275, either one of them could easily kill a man with one blow.They are both incredibly strong, even given their size.This is something to consider, if you were attacked by a person that was like one of my sons, they would not need a weapon to end a life. They are both good men,and have never harmed nor will ever harm an innocent person, but niether one has ever come close to losing a fight, and as I have taught them, you have a right to exist as long as you are being lawful. I will retreat from any altercation if it is possible, but most days, just walking is hard, there is no such thing as running for me anymore. I have been attacked in the past and have gotten out of harms way without having to actualy fire a gun.If someone the size of one of my Sons came at me, and I could not flee, I will shoot them, I HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST. If I am jailed for doing what I think is right, so be it. Of course, If the boys are with me,well, I'll just stand back and let nature and my boys take their course!!And yes, I am a proud papa!
As always JMHO and YMMV
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Old February 3, 2011, 02:54 PM   #64
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I can't remember the last time....

... outside of road rage incidents at traffic jams...

... that a single person started a fair fist-fight.

The norm has been multiple attackers gang up on some victim. A few years ago, the rage in central Florida was "curbing." That was where, after the victim was knocked senseless, the attackers would open his jaws, and place them to either side of the edge of a curb, and then kick the victim in the back of the head, breaking jaws and shattering teeth.

Of course, there were the guys on I-4 near Daytona a couple years ago who challenged a guy to a fight, then decided to shoot him instead.

Or the guy who willingly got into a fist-fight in Orlando, but then when he was hit he fell and hit his head on a car's bumper. Killed him.

So, while the OP's scenario falls into a grey area, it's also not a very likely one.

Now, it does raise a question: Say, instead of wanting to fight, the BG is attempting a strong-arm robbery?

In Florida or Georgia, pretty sure that would actually qualify for use of the firearm in SD. (Specified forcible felonies.)

So, the next question is: what is the difference? (Morally, if not legally.)
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Old February 3, 2011, 03:26 PM   #65
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Hey, I walk with crutches. I'm not, no way on God's green earth, going to allow anyone to get that first punch in on me prior to drawing my weapon if I can help it. I'd be on the ground and helpless. I will, and have, shout "I'm armed, stay back". If they proceed I will, and have, show my weapon. If they still proceed i will, and have, point my weapon. If they still proceed I will shoot. No ifs ands or buts. I made these decissions long ago and feel completely justified in this response.
Well said and my point exactly. This is the sequence I "will and have" used up to the pointing my weapon stage.

I believe you "will and have" been deemed justified on a couple occassions by law enforcement. Isn't that correct Micro?
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Old February 3, 2011, 03:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by threegun
I believe you "will and have" been deemed justified on a couple occassions by law enforcement. Isn't that correct Micro?
You are correct threegun.

Nowhere in the US or Florida constitutions am I required to take a beating prior to defending myself.

Anyone who believes he should just duke it out with a felon, and anyone attacking you IS a felon, is just a fool destined for the cemetery.
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Old February 3, 2011, 03:59 PM   #67
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Two more cents

I am with MLeake on this. When was the last time you heard about a "Fair Fight"? This concept dissapeared many years ago, in my estimation. Gone are the days when you would duke it out and call it settled. We live in a much, much more violent time.
And as I stated previously, I have a right to exist. My father was from Daingerfield, Texas, he believed that it was ones duty to shoot wrongdoers, as they would most certainly harm another person if you did not. If you let him go and he harmed another, you would share blame.
Just what Dad thought, pretty interesting concept, actualy.
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Old February 3, 2011, 04:39 PM   #68
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Nowhere in the US or Florida constitutions am I required to take a beating prior to defending myself.
And nowhere does it say you can use lethal force.

Lethal force can normally only be used in response to force that can cause death or grave injury.

Fists have been around a long time.

Some states have case law that firmly cones down on the side of fists NOT being presumed lethal force.
Responding with lethal force to the threat of fists would put you in a very ba position at trial.
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:04 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickeyee
Some states have case law that firmly cones down on the side of fists NOT being presumed lethal force.
Responding with lethal force to the threat of fists would put you in a very ba position at trial.
Not Florida.

And since a blow with a fist can, and has caused many, many deaths, the US constitution guarentees my RIGHT to life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brickeyee
Lethal force can normally only be used in response to force that can cause death or grave injury.

Fists have been around a long time.
So have clubs, so by your reasoning they're not lethal?

And graveyards are full of folks beaten to death with fists.
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:10 PM   #70
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Look at it another way. Not knowing if the thug who wishes to attack me with his fists will stop at simply beating me unconscience, why should I allow myself to be at his complete mercy. Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
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Old February 3, 2011, 09:22 PM   #71
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Well said

Well said Microgunner, as I said earlier, if someone like my Sons Hal and Aaron tried to give me, or most people, a beat down, death could certainly be a reasonable outcome. My son Aaron, who has been discharged from the Navy, He was on the JFK, a hatch came down on his head during Desert Storm, and has caused him grevious mental issues, was in an altercation in Md. four years ago where they first wanted to charge him with attempted Murder in the first, for the damage to a man who attacked him. He made a bad mess of this fellow, who will never recover completely.Again, as I stated earlier, no matter who you are, when you see Hal or Aaron, you know you are looking at two BIG MEN. This is nothing that I or Aaron are proud of. And the charges were eventualy dismissed.The man did attack Aaron without provocation. I only state this to show what one can do to another with only "His Fists". Sugar Ray Leanard used to come in to my restaurant in the eighties, he is not a big man, but just think of what would happen if he "got a mad on" at your average person. Dead, and dead quick. BTW, you will never meet a nicer more down to earth person than Sugar Ray.
You have no idea of how your attacker will hurt you.
If you are sent to prison, that means you are still alive.. That is my opinion.
YOU AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST.
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Old February 3, 2011, 09:33 PM   #72
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Pepper spray.
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Old February 3, 2011, 09:54 PM   #73
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Ah, the advantages of old age - no jury expects us old guys to be able to run and neither do they expect us to be able to engage in a fair fist fight. Therefore, I feel entitled to use whatever force I have available to avoid blunt force trauma to an old body.

I get amused with all the posts saying "you can't use deadly force" in the given circumstance. Don't be ridiculous - trust me, I CAN because I have armed myself and practiced to be able to do just that. Now, you can tell me that you and/or the law think I SHOULDN'T. (Kinda like playing "may I" versus "can I".)

Even if I were a young, muscular stud, I would require certain steps to insure the so-called "fair fist fight" was really gonna be just that. I would want the other guy searched for weapons, I would want a detailed investigative search of his background to insure his level of training was not significantly better than mine in hand-to-hand combat, and finally I would want one of those referees from the TV "legalized beat-em shows" to insure that we were separated when a winner had been determined. Anything less than the above is just playing Russian Roulette in the area I live. I don't recall seeing any fair fist fights even when I was in high school - just keep beating and kicking the other guy until someone finally pulled you off of him.
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Old February 4, 2011, 06:07 AM   #74
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That's why I always have someone with me. I don't have to outrun the bad guy, just the person I'm with.
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Old February 4, 2011, 01:06 PM   #75
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When I spoke about the "punch in the nose" doctrine- I wasn't speaking about what is right or wrong. IMHO if some guy punches you in the nose- all is fair- shoot the SOB ...BUT...when I got my Florida concealed weapons permit the instructions gave some guidelines on when you can or cannot shoot. I forget some of the details but one example in the instructions was about a guy at a gas station who gets into an argument with someone else. The guy retreats to his car and the other guy comes over- goes into the car and starts hitting the guy. The victum shoots the attacker. Off hand I would think your car is your "Home" so you would be justified but the law convicted the guy and sent him to jail on the argument his life wasn't threatened. On the other hand Florida is sort of unique as far as home intruders are concerned- as I understand it you can shoot them and no explanation is needed- if they are illegally in your home- that's enough.
On the streets I think I remember part of the instructions inwhich someone was going to be accosted and fleeing the area but the attackers pursued him and he could not get away and so he shot and was justified.
Really confusing to me.
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