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Old September 28, 2009, 06:39 AM   #51
matthew temkin
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Mddevildog--not much to add to your excellent post.
Echoone--I disagree that point shooting is military based.
W.E. Fairbairn developed his system for a large police department where he spent 33 years.
I personally know several PD's--Mass State Police, Akron OH PD, The Swedish National Police to name some--that are having excellent hit rates/gunfight wins since implementing point shooting in their programs.
Point shooting is capable of punching dime-fist size groups in extreme rapid fire
at ranges out to 10 yards( and in many cases out to 50 feet) with minimal instruction and practice.
Here is a review posted on Lightfighter from a free class ( I quite often offer free classes for law enforcement/military personnel) that I put on for some N.J. SWAT officers in 2005.
The class was for just a couple of hours and shows the ease and accuracy point shooting can offer:

The Calverton LI, NY After Action Report:

Date: Oct. 1, '05
Location: Calverton Pistol and Rifle Range, LI, NY
Time:1000 hrs
Weather: clear, sunny, 75F, breezy
Weapons: Glock 23(.40 cal), Rem. 870 pump action 14" barrel
Instructor: Matthew Temkin

Matt offered a pointshooting seminar in Calverton on Saturday for free. Looks like me and two of my guys from work were ther only ones able to make it out. I drove two hours from NJ to see what he was about. I think it's my duty to fill you guys in on what went down and to give Matt much due credit on his level of skill in pointshooting and his overall presentation.

I'll start by reminding everyone the seminar was free, I didn't pay Matt a dime, he didn't have an agenda. Matt brought two friends of his; one a retired agent from a three letter agency, the other a firearms instructor from a multi-juridictional Police Department.

Matt started the day with a 30 min. lecture on the history of pointshooting and its founders. He talked about the gunfighters of the West, WW II, the OSS, Shanghai and the FBI. He talked about the FBI style, Elbow up/elbow down, weapon retention and arms extended pointshooting. The man is very knowledgeable.

We go to the firing line where we had set up three targets at about 4-5 yds. Matt lets us know he's going to fire a couple of rounds then proceeds to machine gun his Glock 9mm from the hip into a target. He fires about four to the Q then three to the head, then five more to the Q. He runs dry, changes mags, then starts at the other target (about 6 yds away). Belly, head, belly, head, switch targets, belly, runs dry. "what do ya think? Pointshooting works?" he asks. I said to myself, "If that's a parlor trick, I want some of that."

He started us off easy then quickly got us moving at a faster pace. He said we were good students and picked up fast. I had never spent more than 10 mins. pointshooting, it was fun to get your mind away from proper shooting fundamentals and let your body do what comes naturally. After no more than 30 mins. we were all shooting with consistent acuracy. I had no more than a four inch spread on my rapid fire bursts, my freind had consistent two inch speads with many going in the same hole. I was jealous. We were shooting from the 5 yd line.

Matt spoke about combatives and echoed the words others have said of fighting and fighting with a handgun is and should be intergrated.

Interesting point; although I know Matt is an avid fan of pointshooting and teaches it zealously, I did hear him say on at least three occassion, "Look this is for in close fighting, where most gunfights are going to happen. If you're 15 or 20 yds away you need to be getting behind some cover and using your sights." Matt never says pointshooting is the only method one should use and belittle any style, school or train of thought. He is opinionated but will end all arguments by saying, look this works for me you can do whatever you want.

We moved over shotgun where we continued to use the techniques discussed for the pistol.

We shot alot that day. The things that most stuck out was: #1. The speed that one could/should be firing your gun. Matt would not be satisfied until it sounded like we were firing automatic weapons. #2. The aggression Matt wants his shooters to have when they fire on a target. We all got alot out of the day with Matt and are going to be looking to do some more training with him, pointshooting, combatives or both. I would recommend Matthew Temkin's training, I found him to know his stuff and be an engaging instructor. I'm going to take back the lessons learned from Matt and add the skills to my normal sighted fire training.

Matt: Great time.


TF out.

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Old September 28, 2009, 11:06 AM   #52
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Should you learn piont shooting?

YOU BET YOUR LIFE YOU SHOULD!
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Old September 28, 2009, 06:49 PM   #53
mddevildog
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As I said, there would be responses to the things I did not cover. Based on the response about levels of focus, you do not really understand them.
I think "flash" sight picture says what it is.
You are correct about what is included in FOF, but much can be learned regardless of your experience level if you take the time to analyze the results of each practice scenario. Not trying to step on toes here, I know everyone is espousing their thoughts and experiences and want nothing but the best for all who carry a gun for protection of life. I have my opinions and they have come after many years of training others, being trained by others training myself with self annalization of performance and effectiveness of techniques used, but then through presentation to trusted colleagues. Much like politics, I often find myself asking myself when reading an article, watching a video, or even listening to someone during a training class, how some of you continue to believe the only way to shoot during a fight is to use the sights. I will not go so far as to say no one can focus on the front sight, even in a "flash", but I will say it will not happen for the largest majority. Why is that? Because in order to have even the slightest chance of doing so, one must have been immersed in an environment where he or she becomes, if it's at all possible, more or less "comfortable" in a highly stressful confrontation. I don't care how much you shoot and practice using a "flash" sight picture, you will not use it, at least initially, during a close, or relatively close spontaneous lethal attack. Neither will you produce a smooth trigger yank without a little horizontal movement of the muzzle, but that's OK. Something else I don't do, don't recommend and do not teach, is maintaining contact with the trigger, with the trigger finger when trying to manipulate the trigger as rapidly as I can during close in fighting drills. I've had it happen to me and I've seen it happen to others on numerous occasions. What I'm talking about is "short stroking" the trigger, a hiccup if you will, but none the less time consuming and if you think even .001 of a second slower is acceptable during a gunfight when it could have been done quicker, I question your sanity. Again, not trying to alienate anyone here, I just don't hold back, one reason I don't post much. One more thing and I'll drop this. During my basic program, using a two hand hold is not addressed until we attain an acceptable level of competence with one hand and sight alignment with sight picture is not addressed until an acceptable level of competence is reached without them and all the above must be done from a stationary platform up through dynamic movement, laterally and to the obliques. I've not had the opportunity to train with Matt Temkin yet, but I will as soon as I get the chance. Matt, we've been "point" shooting here continually since my academy days circa 1971. Again, as I've already said, try training outside your box or comfort level, you might be surprised.
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Old September 28, 2009, 08:38 PM   #54
matthew temkin
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Mddevildog--which part of the county do you hail from?
I am giving presentations next month in Va, August in Reno ( at Wes Doss's 1 inch to 100 yard conference), in September in Boston for the Mass Assoc of L.E. Fireearms instructors and some programs in Az, maybe Fla and perhaps Ohio.
Send me a PM for further details.
Looking forward to sharing some range time with you.
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Old September 30, 2009, 10:41 PM   #55
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Crimson Trace laser grips
If I ever have to shoot at anyone, I'm going to be firing the instant that the gun clears the holster and long before the sights are in my line of sight. With the laser, I can do that, quite literally, upside down and backwards.
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Old October 1, 2009, 01:46 PM   #56
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Matt Temkin, was wondering if you have any plans to teach in Texas sometime. Just trained with R. Phillips (PSP) and had my eyes opened so to speak. Have always felt that "point shooting" was an important skillset to acquire and training with Roger showed me how far that might actually be taken. His lectures on the "fight continum" (which I believe he credited to you) are just flat out common sense. I'd bet if the majority of posters on this thread just had a taste of what could be done with point shooting/dynamic movement and "seeing what needs to seen" as far as sighted fire goes (in the fight continum) then there would be no debate here. Anyhow, missed training with you in AZ earlier this year, maybe we'll see you in TX sometime.
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Old October 1, 2009, 04:27 PM   #57
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threadbare: this is some amazing aiming without sights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYdkt7yIFLY

He also made a 200YD shot with a snubnose (aiming of course)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk
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Old October 1, 2009, 08:53 PM   #58
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cool
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Old October 2, 2009, 06:40 AM   #59
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Threadbare--myself and the two other gents who trained Roger Phillips ( Brownie and 7677) will be co teaching a class this winter in AZ.
7677 is from Texas and we plan a class in Dallas sometime next year.
Here is a review that Mr. Phillips wrote of our class in 2005:

Sightless in Tucson

Here is a review I posted on another forum about the pointshooting course I took last October with Matt Temkin, 7677, and Robin Brown in Tucson.

First off, Robin Brown did an outstanding of putting this together. The facilities at Desert Trails Gun Range and Training Center were perfect for the course. Our range was out in the back away from everyone else. The class room, training room, and bathrooms were all clean and air conditioned. Rick the owner or the range was an excellent host and unbelievable shot. While we were working on elbow up/elbow down at the three yard mark, he was shooting next to me. From the hip, in well under one second, he was shooting a one hole drill. When the hole got to the size of a quarter he started on another hole. At the end of the drill he put about forty rounds through two perfect quarter size holes. I want some of that!

Robin Brown, 7677, and Matt Temkin were all very knowledgeable and each had the ability to pass on their knowledge. Each were excellent teachers and very passionate about what they were passing along. Not only were they great to learn from they were just plan good guys. The times that we had outside of the training environment were a lot of fun and was like hanging out with old friends. They all went well beyond the call of duty and gave and gave and gave.

We got into town at about 10:30 PM on Friday and put a call into brownie. He was down in Bobby's room going over the knife. Yeah, that's right, the course had not even started and we got about two hours of knife work in. Brownie trained for eight years under James Keating and really seemed to know his stuff. Brownie loves passing along his knowledge and would have trained in knife all night if we would have let him. He is also one tough SOB and as hard as a rock. I accidently caught him with a stick in the head, did not even blink and eye or hurt me..........seriously.

Saturday morning Matt Temkin started Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes (FAS) form of PSing. It was divided up into two seperate forms, Applegate first and Fairbairn and Sykes second.

Matt is an absolute expert when it comes these two forms of PSing, let alone the historical context of the two systems. He started with the Applegate method first due to the fact that it was less involved. Applegate did not teach shooting from the hip as Fairbairn did. Applegate taught the three quarter hip and the point shoulder.

The three quarter hip is shot one handed, with a bent elbow, with the HG about 6-10 inches below the line of sight, out of a crouch. The accuracy with this technique is quite (amazingly would be a better word) good and I was making good hits out to about ten yards with it.

The point shoulder is done with the same crouch, shot one handed, with the HG held with the arm locked and up in the line of sight. This is very close to what I have been doing in FOF while moving and shooting to the firing side. The accuracy once again is quite good. I was making good hits out to 17 yards (51 feet)

Many of you know that I had been studying this form of PSing well before this course. The truth be told is that I was pretty damm good at it even before the course. Matt took that skill level and made me twice as good as I was before. He did some minor tweaking, but what really made the difference was the "convulsive grip" and the "making your HG sound like a machine gun."

You really have no idea what is possible with these PSing systems until you have been trained in them. There is no way that you will believe the things I saw and did, until you do them yourself. For instance, do you think it is possible to use three quarter hip (see above) and empty your 17 round magazine, as fast as you can pull the trigger, into a fist size group, from five yards?

The rest of Saturday was spent with the Fairbairn system. The biggest difference between the two systems is the shooting from the hip in the Fairbairn system. This skill is by far the most amazing part of FAS PSing.

The position is called half hip and the description of the draw is EU/ED "elbow up/elbow down." The elbow comes up as you clear the holster, then the elbow is crashed down into the ribs. The trigger is pulled as soon as the elbow hits the ribs. This is by far, the fastest way that I have seen to get hits on target as soon as possible. We did not have a timer but we put it to the test in FOF. My training partner, who has always been better and faster than me, and probably always will be was to do a standard flash sight picture and I was to go EU/ED. At the buzzer we drew and shot. I was consistantly able to get two hits on him before he got a hit on me. Everyone was amazed at how fast he was (hell, he's always been that fast) but there was no way for him to beat EU/ED down. Remember this was a Modern Techniques/competition guy with 15 years experience going against a guy that only had 15 minutes of formal training in EU/ED. I had spent a couple of hours playing with EU/ED before the course, but found out that I had been doing it incorrectly.

Once again, the convulsive grip and the "make your HG sound like a machine gun" made this technique remarkable. The accuracy was VERY GOOD out to three yards and the speed of the technique from the draw to emptying your magazine is something you are just going to have to do and see to believe.

My Modern Techniques buddy knew about my fascination with threat focused shooting and he came to this course on my recommendation. I was a little worried about what he was going to think about the FAS PSing. He came with an open mind with a "I'm just going to do whatever they tell me to do" attitude. After this segment of training his quote was "This is amazing!" Yeah, "No [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] Sherlock!"

FAS PSing is an excellent addition to my Modern Techniques tool box. I admit that I have such a big investment in my tool box that FAS PSing will only be an addition. Now if I had it to do all over again, or if my son was going to become a Police Officer, FAS PSing would be the very first discipline I would train myself or my son in.

BTW, FAS does cover two handed sighted fire, but this was a threat focus course.

Saturday night we worked with WWII Combatives with Matt and knife with brownie. These we introductory sessions where we learned a handfull of simple and effective techniques.

Both Matt and brownie are very good at what they do. These sessions made me very interested in training with these two men again, but this time with the focus on combatives and knife.

Sunday morning we started in on Quick fire. 7677 taught this block of instruction. I have been following 7677 posts on a number of forums for over three years now and have learned quite a bit from him. Only tackdrivr has given me more usefull knowledge on the net. I was always a bit ****** off that he was an LEO only instructor, and I swore that if I had a chance that I would train with him.

Quick fire is a two handed threat focus shooting system. It works within the Modern Techniques default drawstroke and seems to be a threat focused solution to a Modern Techniques problem. Shots can be taken throughout the drawstroke, from when the hands come together, all the way to full extention. This is where zippering comes in. Whether you hands come together at abdomen level or at chest level you start getting hits at the compressed ready and continue to fire until extension.

The first shot at compressed ready is the key and the most difficult to get to hit, but with a little practice and the use of the centerline with HG parrallel to the ground, you will be good to go in short order. After that just punch forward while firing. A good four-five shot zipper is opimal with the first two hitting before your first shot on your default drawstroke would.
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Old October 2, 2009, 07:34 AM   #60
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In my neck of the woods that's called fuked fire which means you were caught off guard and your desperately trying to catch up or get ahead.

Such scenario is inevitable and should be practiced.
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Old October 2, 2009, 01:14 PM   #61
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The Border Patrol qualification is point shooting more or less out to at least 7yds. I still try to get a flash sight picture though because I was never that great of a shot, and I believe that having some sort of sight picture is better than none, although I don't doubt there are great point shooters out there.
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Old October 3, 2009, 06:58 PM   #62
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cop-out

I am a firm believer in surviving a gunfight, of which I have on three occasions. Of the first and third, the range was five yards and eight yards. If I had taken the time to use sights on either one of those instances I'm sure I would have at the very least taken a hit. At that range, I am much faster and very accurate shooting from the hip,(I know I'll be called a cowboy) but that is the way my grandfather who was a sheriff taught me to shoot, and the firearms instructor on the PD where I served my time found it perfectly fine after watching me shoot.

During the second incident, I used the sights as the range was about twenty yards. That was also a legacy from my grandfather who started my handgun training when I was five years old. And he taught me to pick up the front sight and canter it over the mass of the weapon, not worrying too much about a fine sight picture until you are reaching out way there. He gave me some sound advise that I always thought came directly from him until I heard it attributed to Wyatt Earp in latter years, and that was "In a gunfight take your time in a hurry". If you practice, and I mean really practice under pressure and against time, when it hits the fan you will use what works as long as you don't panic.

Not bragging, but with practice you should be able to shoot as well as I do which is to hit six out of eight inside a paper plate at fifty yards with a 1911 .45 in just under or just over seven seconds from the signal to draw and fire. The misses won't be more than five inches from the rim of the plate.
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Old October 3, 2009, 09:41 PM   #63
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I am a firm believer in surviving a gunfight, of which I have on three occasions. Of the first and third, the range was five yards and eight yards. If I had taken the time to use sights on either one of those instances I'm sure I would have at the very least taken a hit.
If you learn flash sight picture there is no 'time'. There is no hesitation. Try to find a class were they teach that.
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Old October 4, 2009, 07:00 AM   #64
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In my experience with close quarters combat, there is another factor that should be considered along with range. And that is the type of encounter. If you are being bum rushed by an assailant with a knife within 21 feet, you most likely will not have the opportunity to draw your weapon and fire. A man can cover that distance in less than a second. Defense from this assualt may require utilizing your ready assets first (your hands) before even attempting to reach your weapon safely. This being done, the assailant is well within your safe zone and possibly struggling with you, the only option for fire is a point and shoot from your hip, while attempting to keep the suspect at bay with your non-weapon hand.

Also, one could consider the type of encounter, as a surprise encounter, and encounter with another (you are protecting another), or a closing and imminent attack from a distance. A surprise CQC attack is going to demand a point and shoot situation, where the other three will allow for time to gather a proper sight picture. And immediate bystanders also come into play. If you are being rushed from a distance, and there is a dirt hill behind the perpetrator, the old spray and pray might be the best option. Where as, if there are school children in the danger zone, you will have to steel yourself and take careful aim. What you are firing matters as well. Are you loaded with tactical ammo that will most likely remain in the body cavity, or over penetrating ball ammo that will most likely exit the perp and travel almost anywhere. Even time of day matters. I've had to fire at sound and muzzle flash before. There are many factors involved in a shoot. Are they shooting at you. Or, are they about to shoot at you. Is there attainable cover first, and time to gain a sight picture, or are you laying a supressing fire trying to reach cover.

This is just my opinion from my limited experience on a gang task force. You guys are the experts and all have presented very compelling arguements. My belief has always been to train doing things tactically correct, so in the field the risky short-cuts we take generally come with a favorable outcome. With this in mind, I train by acquiring a sight picture. I do train with a hip shot, however, and shooting from a laying down on my back position. But for the most part, sight acquisition is my predominant form of firing, at the range and otherwise.
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Old October 4, 2009, 09:03 AM   #65
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Mike Conti of the Mass State Police has just published a new book on police training and makes some interesting points on when to use the sights--even if the range is just a matter if inches.
http://www.sabergroup.com/prod01.htm
( Yes, he has a real world example of an officer doing just that to save a hostage)
If the range is close and the threat is directed at you, then there is a strong possibility that you will not use the sights.
However, if the threat is directed at a 3rd party, then there is a strong chance that the sights/flash sight picture can be used.
(This ties in with DainBramage's excellent post.)
I just read this book a few days ago and explained something that I did two weeks ago.
I was teaching at a Mass police conference and had a chance to go trough 20 FATS scenes--live fire via a mobile FATS truck that was on the scene.
I had a partner next to me and all of the scenes were police related in which we did all of the challenging.
Distance to the screen was about 5 yards, but the targets were not lifelike and were actually smaller that a bowling pin.
I noticed that when the bad guy was pointing his gun at someone other than myself I was able to get a front sight index and used it when shooting in these situations.
However, when I reverted to two handed, arms fully extended point shooting, I was faster and much more accurate than when using the front sight.
Because of the distance and small targets I shot every round--be it front sight or threat focused--with two handed point shoulder position.
Which just gives more evidence for the need to learn BOTH aimed and point/threat focused shooting.

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Old October 4, 2009, 09:36 AM   #66
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mddevildog--->>

Time for me to step on some toes. Do you guys read what you type, or use spell check or check your grammer before you submit it?

Spell check for some yes..... but are you familiar with the concept of a paragraph??
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Old October 4, 2009, 09:45 AM   #67
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there you go... fixed it mddevildog

You are correct about what is included in FOF, but much can be learned regardless of your experience level if you take the time to analyze the results of each practice scenario. Not trying to step on toes here, I know everyone is espousing their thoughts and experiences and want nothing but the best for all who carry a gun for protection of life. I have my opinions and they have come after many years of training others, being trained by others, training myself with self analyzation of performance and effectiveness of techniques used, but then through presentation to trusted colleagues.(no predicate)

Much like politics, I often find myself asking myself when reading an article, watching a video, or even listening to someone during a training class, how some of you continue to believe the only way to shoot during a fight is to use the sights. I will not go so far as to say no one can focus on the front sight, even in a "flash", but I will say it will not happen for the largest majority. Why is that? Because in order to have even the slightest chance of doing so, one must have been immersed in an environment where he or she becomes, if it's at all possible, more or less "comfortable" in a highly stressful confrontation. I don't care how much you shoot and practice using a "flash" sight picture, you will not use it, at least initially, during a close, or relatively close spontaneous lethal attack. Neither will you produce a smooth trigger yank without a little horizontal movement of the muzzle, but that's OK.

Something else I don't do, don't recommend and do not teach, is maintaining contact with the trigger, with the trigger finger when trying to manipulate the trigger as rapidly as I can during close in fighting drills. I've had it happen to me and I've seen it happen to others on numerous occasions. What I'm talking about is "short stroking" the trigger, a hiccup if you will, but none the less time consuming and if you think even .001 of a second slower is acceptable during a gunfight when it could have been done quicker, I question your sanity. Again, not trying to alienate anyone here, I just don't hold back, one reason I don't post much.

One more thing and I'll drop this. During my basic program, using a two hand hold is not addressed until we attain an acceptable level of competence with one hand and sight alignment with sight picture is not addressed until an acceptable level of competence is reached without them and all the above must be done from a stationary platform up through dynamic movement, laterally and to the obliques.(This sentence is 62 words long... too many!)

I've not had the opportunity to train with Matt Temkin yet, but I will as soon as I get the chance. Matt, we've been "point" shooting here continually since my academy days circa 1971.

Again, as I've already said, try training outside your box or comfort level, you might be surprised.
Stay Safe
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Old October 4, 2009, 02:31 PM   #68
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Dragon55...

... if you're going to correct grammar and spelling, why turn annalization into analyzation, instead of analysis?

Cheers,

M
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Old October 4, 2009, 09:08 PM   #69
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To All, please accept my apologies. I should not have posted anything about others spelling and grammer, but should have focused entirely on the content of the post. It won't happen again. As for my post, it is what it is.
Stay Safe
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Old October 5, 2009, 06:32 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cop-out
Not bragging, but with practice you should be able to shoot as well as I do which is to hit six out of eight inside a paper plate at fifty yards with a 1911 .45 in just under or just over seven seconds from the signal to draw and fire.
Uh huh. Man, if it was that easy, a lot more people would shoot The Practical Stage at Bianchi Cup clean.

See, the 10 ring on a Bianchi target is 8 inches, which is surprisingly about the same size as a paper plate. If you're shooting 8 rounds in 7 seven seconds at a target at 50 yards and you're getting 6/8 in the 10 ring, then that would make you a better shooter than Robbie Leatham.

Color me skeptical.
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Old October 5, 2009, 08:39 PM   #71
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See, the 10 ring on a Bianchi target is 8 inches, which is surprisingly about the same size as a paper plate. If you're shooting 8 rounds in 7 seven seconds at a target at 50 yards and you're getting 6/8 in the 10 ring, then that would make you a better shooter than Robbie Leatham.
NRAhab,

You didn't subtract the time to react and draw either.

But, if using a very very accurate .45, light loads, perfect weather, and some warm up, might could be done, with or without sights. I dunno. It does translate to 4 inch 25 yard, or 2 inch groups at 12.5 yards and down to a one inch group at 6.25 yards (about 19 feet) I believe.

But I'd sure hate to try it with a street Glock .40 or Smith K .357 and full loads.
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Old October 5, 2009, 08:54 PM   #72
oldkim
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Color me skeptical

Hmm,

If you can hit targets at 50 yards in under 7 seconds? Why aren't you competing??

Just curious?

Ya, I'm skeptical.
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Old October 10, 2009, 11:48 AM   #73
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If you merge this 'point-shooting' thread with the thread on 'moving and shooting' you guys will be onto something
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Old October 10, 2009, 12:09 PM   #74
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I dont buy this, 'NO TIME FOR SIGHTS " BS.

I would recommend one take in a ISU Rapid fire match. I normally consist of shooting @ 25 yards. You have 5 targets, you start with the gun at ready, or about 30-45 degrees to the target. One handed. The targets turn, and you have 7 seconds to hit all five targets. This is repeated at 5 seconds and again a 3 seconds. Its dern near impossibe to do it with 22 LRs you pretty much have to use shorts because of the recoil. Try it point shooting, then try it using your sights. If you can get on your sights at 25 yards, and engage five targets in 3 seconds you can pretty much assure youself you can get on the sights on one target at 7 yards.

If you develope a habbit of getting on our sights you wont be able to meassure the time differance between point shooting and using your sights.

I know I notice my sefl defence or combat type practice gets a lot better afther I re-inforce the fundementals by shooting a bullseye match. One just has to have the WANT TO, and be willing to put in the effert to learn and practice the fundementals.

JMHO
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Old October 10, 2009, 03:25 PM   #75
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If you develope a habbit of getting on our sights you wont be able to meassure the time differance between point shooting and using your sights.
As long as we are talking about shooting from eye level and not 2/3 hip or 1/2 hip, this is correct. Using non-traditional 'flash sight picture' does not add time at eye level shooting.

And at 1/2 hip you can use retention shooting do fine out to 2-3 yards. And that is why a combination of sighted fire and retention will cover all bases.

BUT, even then, I'll say knowing how to shoot from 2/3 hip has it's uses. It's a 'nice to have' skill.
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