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Old November 12, 2007, 09:22 PM   #126
mountainclmbr
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The percentage of "Government licensed drivers" that are killed, per capita is much greater than the gun deaths per capita. Is this some sort of contest?
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Old November 12, 2007, 09:25 PM   #127
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Hmmm ...

Some interesting responses.

Not specifically concerning the right to own and possess firearms which are concealable, but just the lawful ability to carry them concealed in public, right?

Okay. Let me ask a slightly different, but somewhat similar question ...

Does anyone feel it's necessary and appropriate for Law Enforcement officers to receive some basic training in the handling and usage of their firearms, as well as some knowledge regarding when deadly force may be considered justified, before they're allowed to go out and among the general population in an armed capacity?

Or, is the fact that they're considered normal law-abiding citizens when they're hired sufficient to send them out in an armed capacity amongst all of us, without any specific training?

Training, or just hand them a firearm and let them 'act responsibly', based upon their life experience and 'common sense'?

Whad'ya think?

Just curious.
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Old November 12, 2007, 09:37 PM   #128
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Does anyone feel it's necessary and appropriate for Law Enforcement officers to receive some basic training in the handling and usage of their firearms, as well as some knowledge regarding when deadly force may be considered justified, before they're allowed to go out and among the general population in an armed capacity?
Apple and oranges
LEO is paid to actively engage, he is representing the local/state/federal government.
If a CCW gave you powers of arrest and to actively seek out felons I would agree with you.


Quote:
Or, is the fact that they're considered normal law-abiding citizens when they're hired sufficient to send them out in an armed capacity amongst all of us, without any specific training?
Go shoot with a few run of the mill average LEOs and I doubt you would be impressed with the training they have received. I'm not talking about the men who seek out additional training many times out of their own pocket. I mean the average non gun guy cop.


Quote:
Training, or just hand them a firearm and let them 'act responsibly', based upon their life experience and 'common sense'?
Once again they are acting as an agent of the government which opens them up to an entirely different set of liabilities.

FWIW Chicago PD issues their officers 50 rounds of ammo a year. They qualify a 30 round course of fire one time per year using 30 of the 50 rounds they were issued the previous year. At the end of qualifying they hand you another box of 50. Sounds like a pretty good govt run training program to me
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Old November 12, 2007, 09:41 PM   #129
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Hey guys as fun as this is, we're starting to recycle and I'm sure I'm starting to sound like a broken record. I'm pulling out since it's obvious we're not going to solve the problems of the world in this thread.
It's been fun and thanks to everyone for keeping it civil. Even you Tourister I enjoyed the mind exercise.
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Old November 12, 2007, 10:38 PM   #130
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Agreed....

Might as well put it to rest before it gets stale.

Im glad you all see it my way. No need to clutter up the thread with paens to my genius and praises of thanks for showing you the WAY, pms are acceptable.

And DonR, thanks for the PM with the kind words, I appreciate your addressing me as "Your Enlightening Rotundedness"...*smooch* ;0

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Old November 12, 2007, 10:41 PM   #131
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Apple and oranges
LEO is paid to actively engage, he is representing the local/state/federal government.
If a CCW gave you powers of arrest and to actively seek out felons I would agree with you.
"All rights are granted by government, there is no such thing as individual rights."
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Old November 13, 2007, 03:02 PM   #132
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Agreed....

Might as well put it to rest before it gets stale.

Im glad you all see it my way. No need to clutter up the thread with paens to my genius and praises of thanks for showing you the WAY, pms are acceptable.
What about cousin Joe in the wheelchair and grandmaaaaaaa?!?......

Pusillanimous thread conclusion.

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Old November 14, 2007, 10:57 PM   #133
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Has there been a rash of wounded/killed innocents at the hands of untrained permit holders?

There's must be proof of this happening, right? And I don't mean one article from 1988 -- it’s definitely happening at a frequency that should alarm us all, especially on moral/practical grounds?

I want proof before I sign on because this thread advocates placing state mandated requirements in between going from unarmed, to armed, based on (so far)... hyperbole such as this (bolding mine)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildAlaska
Moral ground? How about an untrained person carrying a gun is a danger equal to the danger that criminals pose.
…and from a guy who seizes every opportunity to call other’s comments out for the same reason. Tisk tisk.

It makes sense to me that before we allow the state to regulate our ability to exercise a Right (not just those involving the 2A), there better be a pile of evidence to support the State's position that there's a tangible threat to public safety in need of our attention, and that the State’s proposed solution (i.e., mandatory training as in this case) is what will get it taken care of.
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Old November 15, 2007, 01:02 AM   #134
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WildAlaska... I must say when you stir the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], You stir it well! Thanks for a good thread. Made everyone think if only a little.
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Old November 15, 2007, 11:39 AM   #135
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Well said...thanks, Trip20, for nailing that perfectly! I tried but obviously failed with my posts.
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Old November 15, 2007, 02:02 PM   #136
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How about an untrained person carrying a gun is a danger equal to the danger that criminals pose.
LOL...ya didnt read it carefully not the context..

But regardless, would ACCIDENTAL shooting stats be relevant?

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Quote:
WildAlaska... I must say when you stir the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], You stir it well! Thanks for a good thread. Made everyone think if only a little.
PS When I was a young man and a know it all who knew nothing, I would have never even considered the idea of mandatory training...now that I am older and do know it all I believe in it.

Mandatory training can turn us from an anit gun culture to the opposite.

And for your gun lovers, the two bastions of gun freedom are Switzerland and Israel. Look how they handle the issue of training
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Old November 15, 2007, 02:13 PM   #137
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Mandatory training can turn us from an anit gun culture to the opposite.
I can agree with that if you put it in the school curriculum. Now get to work on it.
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Old November 15, 2007, 02:29 PM   #138
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The concept is great, but, as so many others have said, the problem lies in the implementation. We would just need to keep it easily accessable, affordable and reasonable in nature.

I would fully support a mandatory training program ( hopefully overseen by or modeled after NRA program ) for all citizens beginning at their teen years. Done properly, it would promote a healthy understanding of firearms and help dispell all the myths out there that the antis keep spouting at truth.

Heck...it might even cut down on accidents.


And....perhaps we could train with military firearms like the Swiss and Israelis!!!!
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Old November 15, 2007, 04:07 PM   #139
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LOL...ya didnt read it carefully not the context..

But regardless, would ACCIDENTAL shooting stats be relevant?
LOL...ya kill me. Only if included in your report are the accidental shooting caused by people who can legally own a firearm...since we are talking about mandating training to those who seek to own or carry a firearm legally. Accidental shootings by children or criminals would be misleading and just not relevant since they would not be eligible for the training in the first place, right?

I am betting the number of accidental shooting by people who fit those criteria is pretty small compared to the "danger that criminals pose" which you keep wanting to compare. I am sure that number would not justify mandatory training.

Incidentally, just how do intend to quantify that "danger posed by criminals"?
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Old November 15, 2007, 05:06 PM   #140
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LOL...ya kill me.
No...an untrained person might

Guess which state has one of the highest levels of accidnetal shootings

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Old November 15, 2007, 06:26 PM   #141
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Wild, would you consider it moral, practical and ethical to require marksmanship and gun safety training in High School? Personally I'd like to see it as a requirement for physical education instead of all the silly ball games. Nothing more useless IMHO than a requirement that students stand in line to learn to hit balls with sticks, except possibly standing in line to learn to throw balls into elevated hoops.
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Old November 15, 2007, 06:51 PM   #142
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Wild, would you consider it moral, practical and ethical to require marksmanship and gun safety training in High School?
hell yeah! I'd like to see this:

"Sec 2 (b) The training requirement for issuance of a CCW shall be deemed satisfied if the applicant demonstrates completion of an NRA certified 2 year HS Course on Firrearms Safety and Responsibility...."

But no, people get their panties worked into wedgies at the mere thought of goverrnment mandating training. I say welcome it. Deal with it. Take the offensive with it! Demonstrate the warrior mindset. Attack!

You want training there Chuckie...OK...heres what we, state X is gonna do... MAKE IT REQUIRED in HS...

Build ya a generation of progun voters huh...and shooting is a feel good activity, even the weakest nerd can do well. Chicks at the HS level do better than boys...what empowerment!!

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Old November 15, 2007, 07:43 PM   #143
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Well heck...let's mandate diet and exercise too! Cant hurt you...in fact, it is key to a healthy population!! With all of the health problems that over-eating and no physical activity causes, let's legislate that and see who ends up on the wrong side of the law.

How's that for thinking outside the box?
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Old November 15, 2007, 08:16 PM   #144
Wildalaska
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How's that for thinking outside the box?
Not very good....the agenda has taped you up


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Old November 16, 2007, 07:34 PM   #145
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I hardly hope to change anyones minds. And want to say that I do 100% believe that people who own and carry firearms should try and get as much training as possible. However in either case I wish everyone the best of luck in their firearms endevors.

For those of you who feel it should be mandatory remember that to give a right that is yours to the goverment is foolish. And once given it is very hard to retrieve. Gun laws chip away at our rights little by little. And creat fissures that become big enough to divide. And once divided it takes little wash away the rest. This was the tactic back in 1919 and it worked. So please give none of my rights on your behalf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Weapons_Law

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.co...tist/id14.html
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Old November 17, 2007, 04:11 PM   #146
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Gun safety should be taught in high school, something basic that covers how to deal with a loaded gun and how to react if you see one. I'd put that and credit safety into every high school. Might be a little more useful than trying to make every kid learn the metric system.

I'm not sure about how I feel about mandatory CCW training. I'm a late gun bloomer, I grew up in an anti house. I learned how to shoot from my father-in-law and the lessons he taught me were re-enforced when I took my hunter safety class.

I'm not a fan of government mandates, but I've got to admit that the state of Maine did a good job when it came to the hunter safety class. And if mandatory training to shoot a deer makes sense...
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Old November 17, 2007, 04:49 PM   #147
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I'm not a fan of government mandates, but I've got to admit that the state of Maine did a good job when it came to the hunter safety class. And if mandatory training to shoot a deer makes sense...
But please explain HOW / WHY it makes sense.

All those in favor of mandatory training point to safety. Yet no one can come up with any kind of proof that mandatory safety training would or could actually work, especially in preventing negligent/accidental shootings by persons with a CHL.

And what's more, not an iota of proof that criminals are a lesser danger than people who legally own guns has been presented, despite it being foisted on us as fact.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain the moral and practical grounds of why we should turn a right into a privilege.

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Old November 17, 2007, 05:25 PM   #148
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If I had the energy I'd sift through the posts here and come up with dozens of reasons to be wary of my fellow citizens being armed. Hell, after spending time here I'm as afraid of knocking on a door after my truck broke down as I am walking through a bad neighborhood.

People in the United States also have the right to live without guns. Those of us who own and carry should respect those who chose not to, and they have the right to expect us to know what we're doing.
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Old November 18, 2007, 09:29 AM   #149
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If I had the energy I'd sift through the posts here and come up with dozens of reasons to be wary of my fellow citizens being armed.
How about just one or two of the top reasons. That should save you considerable trouble.

Quote:
People in the United States also have the right to live without guns. Those of us who own and carry should respect those who chose not to, and they have the right to expect us to know what we're doing.
The right to live without guns? Not sure what you mean by that.

When was the last time you (or anyone reading this thread) saw a person who is legally carrying a gun, such as a CCW'er, violate the rights of a person who doesn't carry through lack of training?

Last edited by Creature; November 18, 2007 at 11:27 AM. Reason: spell check no worky
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Old November 18, 2007, 03:55 PM   #150
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Here's a thread that includes a bunch of reasons: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=256585

We've got a bunch of law abiding citizens rushing to praise a drug dealer after he sprayed his neighborhood while defending his stash.

Quote:
The right to live without guns? Not sure what you mean by that.
IMHO parents should have the right to expect that their kids will be relatively safe in school, professors have the right to expect that they can enter a lecture hall without carrying. People have the right to expect a safe workplace.

I respect you and your opinions (especially given your sig line), but personally I don't object to having to go through some basic training in order to carry a concealed firearm. Again, I had to take a training class before I could hunt, but I still got to hunt.
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