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Old July 6, 2007, 08:42 AM   #26
JoeBlackSpade
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When is it "o.k."?

In the case described, they've already pointed their weapon at you. It is not possible for the situation to get any more serious.

From a moral or legal perspective, there's nothing else left for them to do to "justify" putting 2-to-the-head, 1-to-the-chest. Merely drawing your weapon, for example, on a law enforcement officer will get you dropped. The question here is not "should I", or "can I". The question is "how do I get out of here alive?"

The main problem here, for me, is they've already gotten the drop on me. I must have been less than vigilant, perhaps lost in thought, to not recognize my surroundings, and the approaching assailant(s). At this point, the only way to survive is to use my HEAD, not my weapon.

As a general rule, keep your eyes on their eyes, speak softly, saying "o.k., o.k., no problem, you are the boss, no problem, you are the boss". hands away from body, palms out, moving slowly for the wallet, slightly crouched down. Make your body smaller, and lower to the ground, with your body bladed to the weapon. From this position, you present a slightly smaller target, and you can leap/roll away behind cover *IF* he starts shooting. In many cases, a street thug that starts shooting is NOT going to impact with lethal force. I've read of one account where a police officer and a thug traded rounds inside an ELEVATOR in a shopping mall. 22 rounds fired. 1 impact. Non-lethal. Subject apprehended successfully, with a minor wound to the foot.

If his weapon is in physical contact with me, i.e., small of the back or to the face, I am going to push my body against the weapon slightly to create positive pressure. From here, I can use one of many effective disarming techniques. If you don't know any, you can get instruction from a good Krav Maga instructor.
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Old July 6, 2007, 10:07 AM   #27
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If my life, or that of my loved ones, or of an innocent person, is being threatened by someone.

I never go near a gun when I am angry; only when I frightened for my life.
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Old July 6, 2007, 10:53 AM   #28
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Pulling a trigger is a last resort and for sure have a good lawyer. Live by that
and perhaps it will go well.
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Old August 25, 2007, 07:36 PM   #29
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If someone pulls a gun on me....either he's gonna walk away, or I am gonna to walk away! Of course if the bg catches me by surprise and already has his gun drawn and I don't. I would have no choice but to either comply or die, so in that case I would do whatever it takes to keep from getting shot.
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Old August 25, 2007, 08:39 PM   #30
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As a general rule, I would only pull the trigger when I or someone else was in danger of serious injury or death and I would only do so when I had a clear line of fire and was sure of where my bullets are going to go. However, Murphy being the prick he is I would/will adapt or change this rule depending on my reading of a given situation.
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Old August 25, 2007, 09:28 PM   #31
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Hmmm .... good subject!

I'll admit to being slow to pull a gun. (Yes, I've had several occasions.) Me? I won't draw unless I fully intend to fire; and, if I'm going to pull the trigger, then, it's got to be for either the preservation of life or future health.

While I very well might use a gun to stop a carjacking, (Because a carjacking is very dangerous as well as very up close and personal.) I wouldn't use a gun to stop an ordinary car theft. If someone gets into one of my vehicles while it's parked out in the driveway and drives off, I won't pepper him with, 'hot lead' as he goes down the road.

On the other hand, if somebody tries to stick a gun in my face to order me out of my vehicle, well ... from that point on, I don't think either one of us is going to have a good day! I know that I would draw and instantly fire, thrice, BEFORE the other guy's gun barrel was leveled on me; and, like I said, I'll admit to being slow to pull a gun. Just don't threaten me with deadly force or dire physical harm; and, we'll get along fine together.

There is another question here; 'How do you know when you're truly in danger?' The answer for me involves a combination of: training, experience, cold nerve, and a Christian willingness to not snuff out someone else's life without giving him benefit-of-doubt by waiting a moment, or two, longer than might be practical.

In short, if I'm not 100% certain about the other guy's intentions AND, also, believe I've got that final moment I need to act, then, I will wait - even to well inside of Tueller's famous 21 foot personal safety zone! I have and will continue to apply these personal standards of armed behavior to all confrontational situations which do NOT include the other guy's use of a firearm.

With guns, it's a whole different set of rules: Whenever you face a gun you've got zero reaction time and need to remember to act accordingly!

Quote:
As a general rule, keep your eyes on their eyes, ...
No, my friend, it's NOT their eyes that you have to watch. Sometimes you can't even see the eyes. It's the hands! Monkeys always do evil with their paws. Watch the entire head, the shoulders, and the hands; and, then, you'll know exactly when to begin firing.
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Old August 27, 2007, 05:18 AM   #32
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Interesting discussion.

I have a "bone to pick" with the well-used phrase, "deadly force should be your last option".

I would suggest that sometimes it should be the FIRST option. Tactics are not always linear, and sometimes you may put yourself or others in danger by not shooting.

And sometimes it's better to talk to the police, after a righteous shoot, too.
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Old August 27, 2007, 09:35 AM   #33
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This is kind of a hard question to answer, because it not only depends on the event, the criminal enterprise of the area (are the local thugs known to shoot the victim), your mindset, but also (and most importantly) state and local (case) law.

In Florida the onus is on the shooter because our laws are very broad, and have been interpreted as such by recent case law.

Now my opinion if this occurs in my house, and I illuminate you, and you either charge me, or have any type of weapon, fire at will unless you are leaving, and it's legal too.

On the street it really depends on the threat, but armed robbery and rape would be a shoot scenario if there was a clean shot.
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Old August 27, 2007, 01:48 PM   #34
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If you're threatened with violence then it's not a *property* crime.
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Old August 27, 2007, 02:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
I have a "bone to pick" with the well-used phrase, "deadly force should be your last option".

I would suggest that sometimes it should be the FIRST option.
I think this was meant rather like the old adage that you find something you lost in the last place you look. In essence, your first option can be your last option in some situations. You just have a lot of folks here trying to make sure the Rambo effect isn't what is advocated in what they say.
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Old August 27, 2007, 06:00 PM   #36
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I truly believe that it is an inherent trait (especially in men) to stand ones ground. At the first sign of a serious threat, (ie: being approached and seeing a gun as it is being drawn) how many of you would even consider turning tail and running away even if you were armed?

How many would seek nearest cover and draw your own weapon?

I practice a lot, compete a lot, and carry a lot. While I am not going to win any IDPA championships, I can draw from concealment and hit center mass in under 2 seconds, so if at all possible, I would............ beat feet out of there as fast as I could, put distance and cover between myself and the bad guy, have my weapon drawn, keep a close eye on him, and call the cops!

When to pull the trigger? When there is absolutely no other option.

Many "What would you do if...." scenarios have been posted here and on other forums. Most of the replies I see are shoot or comply. What the hell is wrong with removing yourself from the situation rapidly if it is possible? I almost never see this response posted.

I think it is because most of us are naturally wired to take a stand. This is all well and good when weapons are not involved. When they are, getting away from the danger, if possible, beats putting a hole in someone, or worse getting a hole put in you.

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Old August 27, 2007, 06:10 PM   #37
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It ALL depends PER situation...
Personally...... If a person has a gun OR a knife pointed at me, a family member or friend that is authorization for deadly force. Weather or not he is only asking for money or what. That weapon is still pointed at me.
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Old August 29, 2007, 09:41 AM   #38
David Armstrong
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One way to look at the issue is to expand the question: "Why would you willingly change an armed robbery (or other incident) into a gunfight?" Most criminal events that involve deadly force start out that way. If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on. Criminals tend to threaten in order to gain compliance, and as long as that compliance is there the event rarely escalates. The key, IMO, is being able to determine with some degree of accuracy when that escalation is occurring, and not doing things to up the violence level yourself. Shooting is a last resort, not a first choice. As Doublestack put it, "When to pull the trigger? When there is absolutely no other option." And once you pull the trigger you have eliminated a lot of other options you might have been able to use.
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Old August 29, 2007, 07:53 PM   #39
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Mr. Armstrong,

I'll disagree with your statement
Quote:
If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on.
Don't ever count on that. That small chance may be your own death sentence. To wit:

The fellow who owned the neighborhood liquor store complied totally with his Samoan armed robbery suspect and was shot as the thug left the store -- twice. Fortunately he survived.

A few years ago while I was in Las Vegas, a convienence store operator complied and was forced into a service closet, then shot six times. He did not survive.

Two years ago, thugs broke into a local restaurant in the early AM, forced the manager to open the safe. Five employees complied in every way. The manager was shot in the back - now has limited use of his left arm - and a 62 year old cook was severely pistol-whipped and lost an eye. Both people were injured after the crooks got what they wanted. The thugs were debating one thug's suggestion that "we cap 'em all" but they were interrupted by a delivery truck pulling up.

Anytime someone uses a threat of violence there are 3 things to remember;
1. He expects you to comply out of fear;
2. It is implicit that he will kill/cripple/maim you at his whim;
3. There are no guarantees he will respect your compliance and not hurt you.

I refuse to let my fate be dictated to the whim of some thug who thinks laws are only for the weak and timid.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:25 PM   #40
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I, too, don't agree with the opinion that -

Quote:
Originally posted by David Armstrong
If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on.
I'm aware of numerous instances where aggressive thieves, 'needed' to experience an overwhelming sense of control over their victims and freely chose to use their guns or knives immediately before leaving the scene of a crime.

After an attack these people are going to return to a generally downtrodden daily existence; their lives are largely dissatisfying. They live with an unusual sense of inferior being that normal people would find difficult to understand. These misfits often appreciate their disadvantages, understand their dilemma, are irrepressibly angry, and want to get even!

For many of these people, I don't think their violent antisocial behavior is just about robbery; I believe that many sociopaths will actively seek to attack and rob you for the, 'pure rush' of finally being powerful and in control! Remember, in order for, 'control' to be real, it must be exercised; and, 'power' is worthless unless you have a chance to use it!

Like I said, for many of these people, I don't think it's just about sex or money. You CAN count on them to use their weapons! Most of these guys don't rob you because they simply need money; they rob you because they're angry, hold onto an active social hatred for people in general, and need to create some sort of social situation where - no matter how brief - they can feel powerful and in charge.

After they get your money, or your virginity, or whatever, that's when many violent thieves are really going to want (or need) to hurt you! Many times, compliance only forestalls the inevitable - Which is YOU bleeding!

In my opinion, for reasons most normal people won't anticipate, the last few seconds of many robberies and assaults are often the most dangerous!
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Old August 31, 2007, 09:54 AM   #41
David Armstrong
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Quote:
I'll disagree with your statement
That is fine. One can disagree all they want, but one should also find out what the facts are.
Quote:
Don't ever count on that.
True, don't count on it. Again, though, that doesn't change the facts, which are as stated.
Quote:
That small chance may be your own death sentence.
Just as starting the shooting may be your own death sentence. There are variables either way to be considered.
Quote:
Anytime someone uses a threat of violence there are 3 things to remember;
There is also a 4th thing:
If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on.
Feel free to make a choice, but let's make choices based on accurate information whenever possible. My $.02.
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Old August 31, 2007, 09:59 AM   #42
David Armstrong
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Quote:
I, too, don't agree with the opinion that
As mentioned, feel free to disagree, but recognize the facts. What I said is not an opinion, it is a fact.
Quote:
I'm aware of numerous instances where aggressive thieves, 'needed' to experience an overwhelming sense of control over their victims and freely chose to use their guns or knives immediately before leaving the scene of a crime.
Such instances are quite rare in comparison with those where that does not occur.
Quote:
Like I said, for many of these people, I don't think it's just about sex or money. You CAN count on them to use their weapons!
I'm aware of what you said, but I'm also awqre of what the research into this sort of stuff reveals. I'll deal with facts anytime they are available as opposed to what someone says or thinks.
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Old August 31, 2007, 10:17 AM   #43
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lots of points to consider, if the BG had the 'drop' on me you better beleive I'm telling him 'Be cool here's wallet' then backing away looking for any moment he may be distracted enough for me to get my weapon out, while still withdrawing.
this doesn't seem to be a 'home invasion' sort of scenario but rather a street surprise type of situ. an ambush sort of thing. probably the worst situation.
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Old August 31, 2007, 11:24 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by David Armstrong
As mentioned, feel free to disagree, but recognize the facts. What I said is not an opinion, it is a fact.
Me too! Source? My own family.

Quote:
(idem)
Such instances are quite rare in comparison with those where that does not occur.
Actually, no they’re not! I get reminded of how these sociopaths really think every time I walk into my favorite gun shop and look at the proprietor’s head. No (sane) reason in the world for him to have been savagely butt-stroked just before the robbers left the store!

He was outnumbered 3 to 1. They were armed with pistols and an AK-47. He did exactly as he was told and offered no resistance. He lay down on the floor and let them take whatever they wanted. All he asked was that they not hurt him. Their response? Just before leaving, they hit him hard enough to almost kill him! It didn't have to go down like that.

On the other hand, my wife refused to comply when two, 'bangers' tried to hijack her new car. She was able to escape and got to keep her car, too. What do you think would have happened to her if she complied and allowed them to get into that car with her? (She's an attractive woman!)

Well, feel free to sight your sources. Something from big corporate America or the liberal left, perhaps? Maybe you should get some real world experience by working the night shift at your local, 'Stop & Rob' for awhile. We, all, know how well compliance and non-aggression have worked for these people!

THE PICTURE OF COMPLIANCE -


Well ... Now that I've got that off my chest: To be perfectly fair, some degree of (initial) compliance might be necessary. For instance: I DID tell my wife that she should have immediately surrendered the car key by tossing it on the ground in front of her and, then, made a fast break for the front of the building while screaming into her cell phone for help!

Her reply? She said; 'We just bought that car!' Then, she asked me to give her one of my guns which she, now, frequently carries. (Great lady!)

Here, it's very interesting reading:

Jewelry Store Robberies

As you'll note: Some store owners made it; and others did not. (1) At M&M Jewelers, compliance did no good at all. (2) A complete lack of weapon training and gross unfamiliarity with his gun were prime failure factors at DFC Jewelers. (3) A gun once saved the merchandise - and the day - at Newton Jewelry; but, the owner has said that, because of, 'insurance reasons', he'd never do it again. (May he live so long!) (4) At Beverly Hills Jewelers, a gun(s) again saved the day; and (5) at Paradise Jewelers, a nice old lady lucked out by immediately cooperating and just got tied up.

So, yes, I suppose if you're a nice old lady compliance might, very well, be the only way to go! I'll say this: I would never have given a gun to my very own mother because no amount of training would have prevented that woman from promptly finding a way to shoot, either, herself or one of the neighbors with that fascinating device!
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Last edited by Night Watch; August 31, 2007 at 01:38 PM.
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Old September 5, 2007, 09:33 AM   #45
David Armstrong
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[QUOTE]Me too! Source? My own family.[QUOTE]
That's nice, but almost by definition anecdotal information is fairly irrelevant in small doses when one wants learn something about general behaviors.
Quote:
Actually, no they’re not!
Nice claim, but contradicted by the facts. In violent crimes if one is not injured right away and barring other variables the chance of getting hurt seriously is a very small percentage. If you have some data other than a few personal stories I'd be glad to examine it.
Quote:
Well, feel free to sight your sources. Something from big corporate America or the liberal left, perhaps?
Yes, that bastion of liberalism known as the FBI has such a record of distorting the data. Strange that it is used by virtually everybody.
Quote:
Maybe you should get some real world experience by working the night shift at your local, 'Stop & Rob' for awhile.
In my younger days I worked quite a bit in just such a situation, and also continued to do so P/T after becoming a LEO, so I'd suggest you might want to find out what you are talking about before you accuse people of needing or lacking in any certain experience.
Quote:
Here, it's very interesting reading:
Nah, I find general anecdotal stories to be fairly useless. When you get numbers up into the sefveral hundred, or preferably thousands, then you can accurately determine trends, probabilities, etc. You might try reading something like the UCRs to see how your perceptions differ from reality.
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Old September 5, 2007, 10:13 AM   #46
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Night watch,

I suggesting using google and typing in David Armstrong McNeese. There should be enough for you to read about for a while on the topic and David's qualifications.

The facts are out there and David knows them.
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Old September 5, 2007, 10:29 AM   #47
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What are ya, ganging up on me?

Quote:
Night watch,

I suggesting using Google and typing in David Armstrong McNeese. There should be enough for you to read about for a while on the topic and David's qualifications.

The facts are out there and David knows them.
Other than the curious coincidence that he looks like my twin brother and writes fairly well, I’m not overly impressed. I, also, come from a family that is famous in, both, state law-enforcement AND education; but, so what, that’s to my ancestor’s credit more than it is to mine.

I, still, don’t agree with much of what he has to say; and, I’ve decided to ignore the little, ‘hissy fit’ he’s thrown above. You can be wowed if you want to; that’s your business. I’ve got better things to do; and, I’m going to drop this, now.
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Old September 5, 2007, 12:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
I, still, don’t agree with much of what he has to say;
As mentioned, whetehr one agrees with what is said has no bearing on what the facts are. One can deal with facts or with what they think. I know which I think will give the best result.
Quote:
I’ve decided to ignore the little, ‘hissy fit’ he’s thrown above.


Quote:
The facts are out there and David knows them.
Thanks, Mike. The problem is that the more facts I learn the more I realize how many more facts there are to learn!
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Old September 5, 2007, 01:31 PM   #49
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Gee, Dave - I was teaching research design in Intro and railing against making decisions based on a vivid instance as compared to collecting enough data to make a reasonable analysis.

Not everyone can get that principle.

I have an theory (haha) - folks imagine how they, dipped in gun theory and fighting, will act in an incident. They see themselves as heroes and winners in combat - they don't think about the total outcome. Thus, being successful by acquiesence in the typical stop and rob or bank robbery is a threat to this word view of themselves.

The correct world view (IMHO ) is that one has a realistic view of the options and abilities. One acts for a goal which is to survive using a path that has the best possibility of such. If the goal is to make a statement - then of course start the fight. If the goal is to save one's skin - then choose a path that maximizes that outcome. One can deal with hurt feelings later.

Now, of course, do I follow my own advice - at the NTI I started one gun fight and a disarm that judges thought I should have let go down. Then I blabbed and got killed when they thought I should have fought harder. Whatever - the point is that there are no dichotomous rules guaranteed of success. One shouldn't futter around but one should think.

If you read victimology studies in the CJ literature - you know there are no guarantees about outcomes - there are just odds.
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Old September 5, 2007, 04:30 PM   #50
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The problem with probabilities as it relates to life and death scenarios is that you DIE if wrong.

Action on the other hand may reduce your chances of survival statistically but it allows you a fighting chance in every scenario.

If my life is at risk, I'm going down fighting. Even though dead is dead I would rather my death hinge on my skill and luck than some bad guys decision.
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