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Old June 18, 2007, 09:57 AM   #26
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Ask that guy with the Martian thread if the Martians have a way to beam the dog out of there.
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Old June 18, 2007, 09:59 AM   #27
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I see prison as being on the menu. I'd step in if it were a human being tied up etc., but a dog? How would I explain that to a DA? The arson angle? No. That's reaching and not a clear imminent threat requiring lethal force.

What would the precedent be if you shot him and were able to vindicate yourself through lawyerish doublespeak? That lethal force is justified when someone hurts an animal? PETA-Pals rolling their dice with hunters?

No thanks. This scenario has lose/lose written all over it.
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Old June 18, 2007, 10:10 AM   #28
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I didn't plan on shooting him. I have other tools in my toolbox and I know how to use them.

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Old June 18, 2007, 10:15 AM   #29
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I am unsure how TX stands on the property term. But here in PA animals including dogs are considered property with a value not deemed worth leathal force. That was part of the law that was hard to understand. It was if they tried to put a value on life. If its the hope dimond fire away but if its a purse watch him run. Kinda odd... But back on topic, if I was alone I would call 911 and give them as much information as possible and keep them on speaker phone on my hip. position myself with my jeep inbetween him and I. Then I would grab my fire extinguisher and bring that with me to hose the pooch if necessary. I would inform him camly that the police have been called and are on the way. If he is dumb enough to try to light the pooch I would put the dog out while he struggled himself with his own fire problems. And if I still had some juice left in the PW I would put him out. But I would make sure I had a forearm pinned under my kneecap to gain complience and after he was out I would finsh the gift package and have him all but cuffed (CDT Training). All the while I would continue to tell the operater on my phone what had happened. Sooner or later I should have back up. But to back it up a bit lets say by some act of God he didn't catch on fire (Unlikely) and it was just the dog. Then he would receive a nice dose of OC and the scenario would unfold again as stated. This is one of those great situations were OC is a great back up tool.
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Old June 18, 2007, 10:26 AM   #30
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OK, he has told you to mind your own business. He "appears" to be about to commit a crime. Arson, cruelty to animals, etc. I'm sure that under Texas law you probably could shoot him. I'd be curious to know how it would look legally though if this happened next...

You advance menacingly toward pyro boy. He fears for his life and draws down on you! Whether you were coming at him unarmed, armed with other, or armed with a firearm, is he now legally able to shoot you? Never mind who gets shot here or who's story is believed. Is he now legally able to defend himself against you?
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Old June 18, 2007, 10:40 AM   #31
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Yer not foolin' me, I know it's a VAMPIRE dog and the guy is just trying to save the world.
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Old June 18, 2007, 11:15 AM   #32
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As with all scenarios, the proper response is a swift Mozambique Drill.

After all, this is make-believe...
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Old June 18, 2007, 12:33 PM   #33
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I'd get Christopher Walken to do a Dead Zone scan of the dog and see if burning the dog prevented a child being mauled. If so, burn doggie burn!

Maybe the guy is a vigilante who snatches up the kind of dog people post here about, and kills them with the only weapon available to him?

If you're so concerned about dogs, adopt as many as you can support from the local animal shelter, where thousands are killed everyday around the country.

Seriously, who gives a rats ass about what the man is doing? It's not my business, and not your business either. The moment you interefere, you make it your business, and you might regret it later.
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Old June 18, 2007, 12:42 PM   #34
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Yes, it is my business. I wouldn't allow a man to beat a woman, child or dog if I had a say in the matter. I will and have intervened - no apologies, no regrets.
Yes, I've paid for it, but it was worth the price of admission.
Never could abide by a bully.

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Old June 18, 2007, 01:36 PM   #35
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Gee whiz, this one is easy pull gun get guy to halt, take can of gas and put in gas tank of car, untie rover, tie up guy, coat guy with some meat product and let rover have his dinner. then use dog to get chicks....like in "A boy and his dog".

Years ago I saw 2 guys stomping a cat to death, they were jumping up and down on his head. I yelled at them stopped the bike and got off, they rushed to their car and sped off. I call cops, tell story, they dont care. I take cats collar and tags find house on rag, tell folks what happened to cat, they call cops and are told to go to the humain soc and fill out a report. I left.

Another time we was hunting, a guy hit his dog and threw it outta the truck breaking its leg, the bone tore threw the skin, guy couldnt put dog down so I did it. Killed lots of stray dogs and cats, folks seem to think they can drop em off way out in the country where I live and they will revert to wild or sumpting. Guesss what city folk? We shoot them, they chase cattle, they get shot.
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Old June 18, 2007, 01:40 PM   #36
Glenn E. Meyer
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Legal justification for deadly force? It's not just the dog.


PC ยง9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible,
movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.41; and (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.



Wildland Arson
The offense of Wildland Arson is defined in the Texas Penal Code, Section 28.02 as follows:
Sec. 28.02. ARSON. (a) A person commits an offense if the person starts a fire, regardless
of whether the fire continues after ignition, or causes an explosion with intent to destroy or damage:
(1) any vegetation, fence, or structure on open-space land; or
(2) any building, habitation, or vehicle:
(A) knowing that it is within the limits of an incorporated city or town;
(B) knowing that it is insured against damage or destruction;
(C) knowing that it is subject to a mortgage or other security interest;
(D) knowing that it is located on property belonging to another;
(E) knowing that it has located within it property belonging to another; or
(F) when the person is reckless about whether the burning or explosion will
endanger the life of some individual or the safety of the property of another.
(b) It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)(1) that the fire or explosion was a part of
the controlled burning of open-space land.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2)(A) that prior to starting the fire or causing
the explosion, the actor obtained a permit or other written authorization granted in accordance with
a city ordinance, if any, regulating fires and explosions.
(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree, except that the offense is a
felony of the first degree if it is shown on the trial of the offense that:
(1) bodily injury or death was suffered by any person by reason of the commission of the
offense; or
(2) the property intended to be damaged or destroyed by the actor was a habitation or a
place of assembly or worship.
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Old June 18, 2007, 02:00 PM   #37
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deadly force to prevent arson sounds legit
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Old June 18, 2007, 02:22 PM   #38
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Explaining it would be the tricky part. I suppose if you were lucky you could just walk away from that (the legal issues that is).
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Old June 18, 2007, 06:11 PM   #39
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It doesn't seem like a firearms issue to me. Personally, I'd pepper spray the SOB and beat him within a half-inch of his life with my billie club (I love dogs). I think using a firearm without a direct threat to my life might be a legal hell, and I know that you can't go around clubbing BG's either, but it just seems a judge/jury would deal a lot better with the fact that Rover reminded me of my chilhood dog, so I just couldn't stop whackin' the ba*t*rd.
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Old June 18, 2007, 06:22 PM   #40
Glenn E. Meyer
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Beating him with a club is a lethal force usage. Won't help you in court if your actions are seen as unreasonable. Stay with the spray.

However, remember the dog is incidental to the arson. That's my trick in the beginning of the scenario.

Thus, your defense is the prevention of arson which is quite clear.
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Old June 18, 2007, 06:23 PM   #41
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Anyone who would set fire to a live dog that is calm enough to allow itself to be tied to a tree is clearly a sociopath and a threat to any other creature unable to defend itself. I can tell you that I will offer a serious beating to anyone persisting in such behavior after being asked to stop. I have to answer to the eyes in the mirror every morning and find myself unable to allow such behavior to go unchallenged. Specific actions will be decided by the escalation or de-escalation of this scenario.

Violence unchallenged is violence unleashed.
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Old June 18, 2007, 09:16 PM   #42
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Glen,
I hear ya, but any situation is dynamic. I couldn't sleep at night seeing the flames in the rear-view mirror, and I doubt they'd find a jury of 12 animal haters willing to do much to me. If this nut is burning a dog today, how long before he decides to try burning a hooker or some poor kid he snatched from a department store? I realize the responsibilities involved here, and maybe it's a weak point with me, but I couldn't stand for it. I don't usually say I'll take my chances, but this kind of behavior needs intervention IMOHO. This situation refers to no cops available, and I just couldn't stand by. Maybe I'll take your advice half way and only hit him a few times because he "resisted".
Cheers! Time to go feed my dogs.
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Old June 18, 2007, 09:38 PM   #43
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I would be very tempted to shoot the crazy sorry sadistic fatherless coward-in-question. And if it came right down to him torching the friend of some little boy or the semi-child of some girl or lady or just some friendly innocent pup and his worthless life...and the fact that the law, as Mr. Meyer pointed out, would seem to allow for (defense of property and arson) it without me going to jail...I might very well send that guy to his final Judgement.

Ideally however, if I was close enough to make a difference and prevent that dog from being burned...I would OC spray him and beat the living human waste out of that sadistic lowlife to....ensure he is subdued.

But the former would probably be all the time I'd have to do.

BTW, what jury in the world would convict me anyway?

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Old June 19, 2007, 12:47 AM   #44
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You probably wouldn't be convicted, that's true.

But...in the months that you'd be stuck in jail awaiting trial, you'd likely lose your job, maybe your home, definately your life savings, and possibly your wife/children.

And all for some mutt that the pound ends up gassing anyways.

Good thinking there.
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Old June 19, 2007, 02:08 AM   #45
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Just because you can shoot doesn't mean you should shoot. When I teach CCW classes my standard recommendation is that you use deadly force only to protect yourself or someone you like a whole lot. And something to think about: is what you are about to do worth losing your life, losing your liberty, losing all your money and assets, losing your home, losing the right to ever carry a gun again, or being separated from your loved ones for an extended period of time, possibly the rest of your life? Those are all possible outcomes when you choose to intervene.
I like dogs and cats and other assorted living creatures, but I'm not taking the chance on losing everything I've worked for to save one.
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:00 AM   #46
Tanzer
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No doubt the dog would shake and the moron would have gas on his clothes too. I always carry a flare gun when I might be out of cell/radio range. Don't know if I'd have time to fish it out, (tongue in cheek) but if I were sending a help signal, and I accidentally misfired it, ooops,...
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:27 AM   #47
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I'm all for helping out when needed but what some of you guys are talking about amounts to murder.
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:29 AM   #48
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Never mind.
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:33 AM   #49
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Quote:
And something to think about: is what you are about to do worth losing your life, losing your liberty, losing all your money and assets, losing your home, losing the right to ever carry a gun again, or being separated from your loved ones for an extended period of time, possibly the rest of your life? Those are all possible outcomes when you choose to intervene.
I like dogs and cats and other assorted living creatures, but I'm not taking the chance on losing everything I've worked for to save one.
Quote:
But...in the months that you'd be stuck in jail awaiting trial, you'd likely lose your job, maybe your home, definately your life savings, and possibly your wife/children.



Well, that's true too. Unfortunatly in the day and age where we value scumbag's life more than my life or your life or innocent people's lives, it can't be just "thanks for shooting the sorry b-----d, we've been trying to catch him a long time. You have a nice day." Attorney's (who run the so-called judicial system from PI Attorney to Judges) want to ensure they get as much of your money as possible. Therefore every time somebody steps on a crack in the sidewalk it has to go to court (along with your money)
Makes one want to ponder doing what a lot of farmers and ranchers do whenever an "endangered" EPA protected coyote or wolf attacks their livestock or chickens....shoot it, bury it and shut up about it....(but that would be going into illegal activity and we don't want to go there)
Sooo, officially I'll just say I'd, shoot the dog, OC spray him and wait until the police get there (which will probably a very long time that he will be in my custody ) I forsee him going to prison in a wheelchair

[QUOTE]
Quote:
I'm all for helping out when needed but what some of you guys are talking about amounts to murder.
No, Sir. We are talking about 1) preventing destruction to the property of another 2) preventing arson from taking place which could light up the whole country side 3) destroying a worthless sack of garbage that is sadistic and cruel and, with such a sick mindset, would have no qualms ultimatly with setting fire to a person.
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Old June 19, 2007, 11:38 AM   #50
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^
|
|

Like I said, the legal issues won't be just cut and dried here...
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