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Old July 14, 2005, 12:24 PM   #26
XavierBreath
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Remember drawing a weapon should be the last option, when all escape routes are blocked!!!
This is my argument BC, when the fellow was flanked, his escape route went away.

Tell me, (and I'm serious, I want to learn) are there really such a thing as "Telephone Pimps" in Florida?
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Old July 14, 2005, 12:30 PM   #27
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"If they have no weapon capable of reaching him and they are...20 feet away then they arent a threat.. just punks..

If they are within arms reach.. in your personal space, then thats a different story."
BCougar . . .

And just how long will it take these TWO punks to cover 20 feet? Will this be enough time for a reasonable person to draw a weapon, acquire the target, and defeat the felon?
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Old July 14, 2005, 12:49 PM   #28
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Xavier - your analysis is spot on correct.

To analyse every possible scenario in a situation which had an effect could turn mind numbing. In reality you will have miliseconds to react - and if not you could be toast.

So lets look at it strictly from how things turned out:

One - Nobody was shot.
Two - BG's ran away.
Three - GG got home safe.

So if you look at it from the end game analysis - everything went right. The person who drew the gun showed force, just enough to avert a potentially bad situation.

If said person retreated (who is to say there were only 2 of them - a third punk could be sneaking up behind you as you keep your eye on the 2 in front of you) and got cornered into his malfunctioning car, and drew his weapon when the BG's were on him - he would have had to shoot them or got his gun taken away - BAD situation.

Sometimes and in this particular case, your instincts or gut feeling when properly honned, is probably the best indicator of when to draw your weapon. Inaction or a show of weakness could lead to your demise.
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Old July 14, 2005, 12:55 PM   #29
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If he would of retreated to his car... then that would of gave him more rights in florida, because of the castle doctrine.
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Old July 14, 2005, 12:56 PM   #30
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If he would of retreated to his car
His car was broken down 250 yards away according to the original post. How could he have done that?
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:08 PM   #31
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By walking away! Give the two a loud and clear warning, hand gestures, no smile, hand on weapon, eyes on both of them..

Walk to the car, or walk to the nearest business, call 911 on the payphone!!! other options exists.. i believe what he did was right, but maybe he didnt exhuast all his resources. like maybe telling the guys he would call the cops.. I know this may be something us gun owners hate saying but it's an option, if that fails and they continue to move closer then act, maybe hold your hand out in the HALT position.. yell, never making a counter threat because then it becomes a fray.. basically two parties arguing.

If they move in for the attack, or draw a weapon, gun/knife/blunt object.. whatever, then draw!

And about the phone pimp thing...no ive never seen a phone pimp, but if these two think they own the phone, and want to charge for it's use...then so be it, let the police tell them otherwise... thousands of other payphones

----
Let's say you want to sit on a park bench, and a homeless guy thinks he owns it because he sleeps on it, and he tries to charge you to sit on it... would you stuff your snubby in his nose? or just go to a different bench!
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:17 PM   #32
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Quote: Bout 2:30pm his car breaks down close to an old abandoned mall parking lot. He sees pay phone (no, he dones't have a cell phone) up besides the mall. Decides to carry Berreta since he would have to walk some 250yd to the phone.

I do not think many payphones would be abundantly distributed in an old abandoned mall parking lot. Since the nearest one is 250 yards, the second one could be 500 yards or not even visible. So are you going to sit in your car waiting for a good samaritan to pass by?

How could someone without a cell phone call the cops?

BG's often size up their potential victims by your body language, if they see fear and watch you back up they will come after you. By the time you have done all those options enumerated, the BG's would have come over and clobbered you, taken your credit cards, cash and gun. Hopefully not though.

In this scenario, looking at the good result that occurred, I find it difficult not to agree with the action that took place.
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:19 PM   #33
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See the anti's read stuff like this and see how quick somepeople are on the draw...


We as gun carriers need to excersize great self control, especially when in public.
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:21 PM   #34
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Give the two a loud and clear warning, hand gestures, no smile, hand on weapon, eyes on both of them..
I dunno BC, I went back up and read the original post, and it seems to me that is exactly what the friend did. Then the two BGs split up to encircle the friend. When he could no longer keep both of them in view, he drew his weapon.

I doubt he could have made it back to his car without severe injury.
I doubt if the BGs would have stopped at a $10 surcharge for payphone usage.
I doubt he would have been allowed to use the telephone without a retreat of the two BGs.
I doubt they would have retreated without a show of force.

This friend was already in the victim selection process, and well on his way to becoming a victim. The BGs did not leave with a verbal warning from the friend, instead, they prepared to victimize the man the same way a couple of dogs surround a wounded badger. From what is presented in the original post, I do not think he was wrong in drawing his weapon. I'm glad he did not have to use it.
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:23 PM   #35
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I would have. Who knows what those guys were going to do? Better safe than sorry. If he would have shot one of them, then that wouldnt be right. I think he was justified!
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:35 PM   #36
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Sheesh

Quote:
We as gun carriers need to excersize great self control, especially when in public.
My word. He didn't double-tap them, so to me it sounds like he exercized some pretty decent self-control.


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Old July 14, 2005, 01:46 PM   #37
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Cougar,

Hit up google and look up "Tueller drill".
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Old July 14, 2005, 01:47 PM   #38
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Definition of threat

According to dictionary.com, the definition of treat is An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment. Thus, if the other conditons of ability and opportunity, are present, then unless the victim can run like Flash, he is in imminent danger. IANAL, but as long as these conditions exist, and victim fears his saftey then he is ok to draw and shoot. Retreat is a form of de-escalation, but only if it can be done safely.

From the short description of the incident, it seems the victim felt "an evil intention to inflict pian or injury" so he drew his defensive tool.
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Old July 14, 2005, 02:05 PM   #39
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I believe I read where FL just changed their gun laws to allow a more liberal definition of armed defense. In which case, if I understand them right, he would have been within his rights to pull his weapon.

Each state is different. You really need to know what the law is in each state you carry in or at least have a very good idea.

While we can try and be lawyers everytime we think we need to protect ourselves. Common sense is more of a rule in my opinion. Was the friend right in pulling his weapon? I would say yes in the fact it defused the situation and everyone walked away unhurt. Was he legally right? I don't know.

I know I am going to react with what my gut and common sense is telling me.
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Old July 14, 2005, 02:16 PM   #40
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By walking away! Give the two a loud and clear warning, hand gestures, no smile, hand on weapon, eyes on both of them..
Two on one, with one already starting to flank him? Sorry, not a good game plan. How do you keep eyes on both of them when they are manuevering to blind side you, unless you suggest walking backwards 250 yards. And what happens when you trip? Ask them to please halt their attack until you are back on your feet?
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Old July 14, 2005, 02:30 PM   #41
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NUG_38, it is important to realize you are not justified in using deadly force in most of the US against someone who has the intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment. The bar is higher for the use of deadly force.
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Old July 14, 2005, 02:49 PM   #42
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Your friend was within his legal rights and no matter what people's opinions are he did the right thing. He diffused the problem without injury. I say right on.
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Old July 14, 2005, 03:06 PM   #43
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AA,

deadly force may be used to defend against the imminent use of deadly physical force against you or another. "Deadly physical force" means force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury. "Serious physical injury" means physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes death or serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ.


What will happen when 2 males start beating on you? Sounds serious to me. Reasonable to see he was fine in his actions.
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Old July 14, 2005, 03:11 PM   #44
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Understood, just wanted to make sure the definition of threat was not taken as the criteria for use of deadly force.
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Old July 14, 2005, 03:38 PM   #45
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AAshooter

I did say that you need ability and opportunity in addition to a threat and fear of grave bodily harm. Sorry if I was not clear earlier, but these requirements must exist before deadly for can be used.

nug
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Old July 14, 2005, 03:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Was he justified in pulling his weapon? Even if he wasn't I probably would have done the same. Two guys larger than myself and taunting me then they attempt to surround me. I believe the last point is the trigger to pull my weapon. Would you have?

He got to go home and have dinner.... Does your buddy have family? Bet they were glad he made it home for dinner. Bet you were glad - did he owe you a beer or 2-- good time to collect maybe offer to buy him one.

Your friend lived through what could have been the end for anybody. Time to be thankfull and celebrate.

I support what he did and believe him to be the good guy in the scene described.
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Old July 14, 2005, 03:41 PM   #47
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2 on 1

Hell yes!!!!!!!!!
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Old July 14, 2005, 03:49 PM   #48
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Carry pepper spray too. Sabre Red or FoxLabs in a 2 oz size.

Situation like this warrents the OC no questions asked. If that fails then thats what the gun is for.
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Old July 14, 2005, 04:04 PM   #49
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I have not seen a phone pimp but we have a lot of ATM pimps.

I would have fled and if followed, I would have drawn. My friend was attacked in a very simular situation. HE DID NOT DRAW. they split up just like this and then attacked him. They found his gun while beatting him up and then put him in the trunk of his car. An hour later, they let him out and told him to run while they emptied his gun at him!!! He was shot and had a few broken bones but was alive. Dont carry unless you are willing to defend yourself. Those 2 punks made it very clear with their body language what they were doing. I would have tried to retreat first, even after October when I might not have to but if they pursued, I would draw and even fire if pressed.
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Old July 14, 2005, 04:07 PM   #50
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Practically, I think he did just fine. Nobody got hurt. Nobody went to jail.

Legally (which isn't necesarily the same thing), I might ask myself how I would have reacted if I didn't have a gun. With no weapon, when I am confronted by two large gentlemen telling me to pay a toll I will either pay the toll or turn around and walk/run in the other direction. What they're doing isn't legal, but I'm in no position to argue with them.

I would suggest that any action other than the above prevents you from appearing as a victim to a jury (should it come to that), especially if you don't have witnesses to back you up.

In my eyes, your friend chose not to retreat when he could have. Had he gone condition orangeish-red with their first payment request he could have been maneuvering away from the threat even as he tried to deescalate.

In a neighborhood I'm unfamiliar with, I can't think of anything that someone I don't know could say to which I would respond "yeah right", especially if that person is going out of their way to say it to me. Alarm bells should have been ringing sooner than they did.

There is no taking the law into your own hands, whether you are armed or not. Shooting someone as you are running away may look very different (to a jury) from shooting someone so you could get to the pay phone God put there for you to use.

I realize that he had to get to a phone, but that wasn't the last phone on earth.

Last edited by eeyore_11; July 14, 2005 at 04:10 PM. Reason: Spelling/Grammar
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