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Old May 26, 2005, 06:15 PM   #26
Christopher II
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"STOP! POLICE!" Shouted while drawing.

If the bad guy somehow hears the command, reacts to it, and complies in the 1.5-or-so seconds it takes me to draw and fire, then good on him. He can consider himself lucky.

If I do have to shoot him, maybe the shout will have thrown him off. Or perhaps the witnesses remembering the verbal command may help out in the post-shooting legal drama. I can't see it making anything worse.

Oh, the "POLICE!" bit is me calling for the Police in the same breath. If the bad guy misinterprets me and stops what he was doing any faster for it, well, that's just one of life's little bonuses.

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Old May 26, 2005, 06:28 PM   #27
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I don't know about saying "police". In some states it may be considered impersonating a police officer. Now if you say "I'm placing you under arrest" (or something like it but quicker) then there would be less of a problem with that because as a citizens in some (all or most?) states we can make a citizen's arrest.
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Old May 26, 2005, 07:08 PM   #28
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Old May 26, 2005, 07:22 PM   #29
novus collectus
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Alright PythonGuy, let me put it a different way. In Md if you identify yourself as a police officer and you are not, you have commited a crime.
Common perception of the phrase "Stop Police" is that the person yelling it is a police officer.
Since it is law to help a police officer in an arrest that asks for it, people hearing this might feel compelled to endanger themselves helping the person who had no authority to ask them (as a DA would argue whether the argument is right or not)
Having people endanger themselves in such a situation may be viewed (by a DA) as tantamount to yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Citizen arrests are legal in my state and if you are performing a citizen's arrest without saying something that may be viewed as impersonating an LEO, then these legal problems would be avoided IMHO if there was a local, overzealous, District Attorney (which is all too comon in Md where the origional mall incident occured) looking at the case.
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Old May 26, 2005, 07:23 PM   #30
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O.K. I just saw the mall story everyone is referring to.

I'd say a "Drop it!", with gun drawn should do it. If that doesn't work, a hip shot would hopefully immobilize the attacker. Hopefully, a bullet that didn't expand immediately in the attacker might fragment on the floor.

If there's people behind the attacker after yelling "drop it" and presenting a pistol, I would have a hard time shooting until it came down to getting stabbed myself.

Tough decisions... I hope I never have to.
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Old May 26, 2005, 07:32 PM   #31
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The guys who say you don't have to say a thing if deadly force is justifiable are right. But I like the added legal padding that comes form acting more reasonably than I have to...

A little thing that's nice about yelling "Stop. Police!" is that witnesses who see you don't look like a police officer often hear it as "Stop, please!" Something to do with auditory exclusion....

But I still gravitate to the "Stop. Don't move. Don't make me shoot you." type stuff. Even when I wear a badge. Just believe in commands that might be obeyed - identification is above the shirt pocket when I work and I'll verbally identify later. While off - I don't care it he looks for it or not, I'm in charge of my life and the situation and he's about to find that out. In short, he'll obey or be shot, and like ChristopherII said, maybe both if he ain't quick about it.

The ol' adage - you'll fall back on trainning applies here. Do we practice a command/yell enough while practicing? I'll bet not - probably gonna be "Squeak!" in a fight or die situation...
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Old May 26, 2005, 07:36 PM   #32
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Bang!
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Old May 26, 2005, 08:48 PM   #33
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PythonGuy,

Perhaps you should read the IF AND statements before you answer the post by insulting the character of the poster.

I think 99% of the folks here know what to do in an obvious situation - BG threatening your life / family and clean backstop - you shoot. The point of the post is - this is NOT one of those situations.

Better to ask the opinions of the learned folks here than to experience it in person and NOT have a plan. Its not paranoia, its just being prepared in my book.

If you READ Chris in VA's post about a woman attacking someone at the mall - with a knife and walking away - if that FBI agent was not there and YOU were, I guess your only choices are to blast her or to run away. Good luck with both - I prefer alternative choices.

Hence the post. Its the smart thing to do.
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Old May 26, 2005, 08:52 PM   #34
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Firstly, if he had a gun out and was drawing a bead on me if you draw you need to take him out and say nothing.

Otherwise 'freeze' or something simple to get his attention.

If he has not got a gun out and you are not in a situation of facing lethal force I am a bit concerned about the fact that you have your gun out. You are going to have a tough time justifying it if he is not armed....
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Old May 26, 2005, 08:53 PM   #35
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As to 'Stop- Police' it sounds a lot to me like impersonating a Police Officer.
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Old May 26, 2005, 09:05 PM   #36
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Lawyer Daggit,
The story he was referring to was a possible crazy woman who had a large kitchen knife and just stabbed two people on two different floors of the mall. The FBI agent was some distance away and there were still many bystanders in the vicinity who had not realised that the blood curdling screams was anything other than a cat fight between two women. No gun in this situation except for the FBI guy. He was asking what should be done in a similar circumstance if we were in the FBI agent's shoes and we were not an LEO. At least I am almost positive that that was what he was asking.
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Old May 26, 2005, 09:13 PM   #37
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I would say... awww $%&# it... it doesn't matter what I'd say, because the sound of my gun firing will be drowning it out anyways.
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Old May 26, 2005, 09:17 PM   #38
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If you yell police some bad things could happen to you --- liest of which would be being in trouble with the law --- yelling police might make others less likely to pitch in and help you, and might make them not call the real police figuring you alredy got it covered.

If this is going to be about a specific incident, my vote would be start a thread based on that particular scnario as it would be easier to lay all that out than to have assumptons being made since clearly the posibilites range from a lot of words exchanged to zero depending on distance / wepon / mindset / location etc....
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Old May 26, 2005, 09:28 PM   #39
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Fair?? Is it "fair" for some scumbag to pull a knife on you???

Quote:
Ya, I guess if he has a knife, I'd better just pull my knife. You know, be a man, make it fair.
Sorry, but IMHO the above is a response "of questionable wisdom." A knife can maim, cripple or kill just like a gun can. If you draw a knife, you are asking to either get hurt, killed or arrested as a mutual combatant in a felony knife fight.

As far as "making it fair," the thug made it unfair when he pulled a knife on you. As one of the Marine's rules of gunfighting says, "Always cheat; always win." IMO, the only "fair" fight is the one that the intended victim wins. Let's be clear here: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH. - win any way you can. Read Bill Jordan's book, "No Second Place Winner."

As far as "being a man," be man enough to do whatever it takes to survive and win, period. The thug who pulled the knife started this - he set the rules, not you. And ALWAYS bring a gun to a knife fight!
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Old May 26, 2005, 09:32 PM   #40
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Not to intrude, but I believe a certain degree of sarcasm was intended in the "make it fair" post.
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Old May 26, 2005, 10:08 PM   #41
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Just a couple of thoughts here. I'm not sure what the story about a mall stabbing was all about -- I didn't see/hear it -- but I can imagine given some of the whackjobs out there today.

First, what to yell. What works for me is simple;

STOP! Don't Move!

Now to the scenarios;
1. Someone stabbing one or more people in the mall. You're there, armed and the person looks like they're going to continue injuring others.
If the threat looks imminent - i.e. the attacker is headed for someone, do your duty as quickly and effectively as you can without endangering others. No time for a warning.

2. Same as above but the attacker is looking around for another victim as people are moving away and/or attacker is headed to the exit.
My view is that if they're headed to the exit, let them exit, follow them and THEN confront them outside. Otherwise, yell the above while fixing the front sight COM. If they comply, the next order is to "drop the [weapon]" followed by Get on the ground NOW!. Failure to comply will probably result in serious injury.

3. Crowded mall - attack in progress or just finished.
You may need to yell EVERYONE DOWN, NOW! to clear the area as best you can whilst taking aim. Obviously decsions will be based on circumstances, the reaction of the mall-walkers, etc. Don't forget that you can move too, so move to the point where you have the least likelihood of hitting someone beyond your primary target.

All of the above apply only to attackers using a weapon other than a firearm. If the attacker is using a firearm there is no point, IMO, of attempting to verbally stop them. Observe enough to know that you are not drawing on another CCW carrier who's interrupted a different crime. Visually check to see if they have backup in the crowd. If you are sure you have a BG in the act, stop them as quickly as you can. Then prepare to spend a looonnng time talking to the cops.

Quote:
I'd say a "Drop it!", with gun drawn should do it. If that doesn't work, a hip shot would hopefully immobilize the attacker. Hopefully, a bullet that didn't expand immediately in the attacker might fragment on the floor.
Not to pick on anyone, but when I read a post like this, I am reminded that hope is not a strategy - Plan your reactions to this kind of event and do your best while recognizing that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy..
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Old May 26, 2005, 10:15 PM   #42
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i give'm the ol' wyatt earp

you could try somethin but not before i turn your head into a canoe
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Old May 26, 2005, 10:15 PM   #43
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Spoon!!!


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Old May 26, 2005, 11:12 PM   #44
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Reminds me of an old joke I heard about 30 years ago....
During the trial, the LEO stated that he'd yelled, "Police officer! Freeze!"
The witness stated it sounded more like, "April Fool, M*****F*****!!!"

Why waste your breath?
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Old May 26, 2005, 11:52 PM   #45
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You can practice all you want, but not everything is that conditioned. I spent the first two weeks of jump school counting when we simulated exiting the plane. What did I say when I exited the plane for real the first time? "S**************t!"
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Old May 27, 2005, 04:52 AM   #46
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There may be circumstances where you would say something .Keep it simple ,one word, STOP or FREEZE. Don't expect him to respond he may , as one friend found out, be loaded with drugs or alcohol and not understand. If he has a gun in his hand you are in IMMEDIATE danger and should shoot not talk.
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Old May 27, 2005, 05:45 AM   #47
big daddy 9mm
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ummmm...

your makin my day bitch

or: this is awesome, I have been wanting to try out my new 454 casull
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Old May 27, 2005, 08:27 AM   #48
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Warning ? Orders?

Two perspectives both make sense:

1. SHOOT the Perp if (under the Tueler Drill theory) the threat has the knife out (in this case, with blood already on it !!) and is within range;

2. COMMAND the Perp to "Stop now or I'll Shoot." "Get on the Ground on your Face, Arms out to the side, spread eagle", and hold the Perp at gunpoint until the police arrive.

Either way you slice it, there will be witnesses and police reports and investigators second-guessing you after things have calmed down. So considering in advance how exactly you'll handle something like that is part of good Situational Awareness (in my book).

Steve Krystek and I have the Cover Story article -- coming out very soon in Volume 2 issue 5 of Concealed Carry Magazine (www.concealedcarrymag.com) and it addresses this process of 'thinking through' in advance what to expect, and how things will be handled etc. The title is called "After the Shooting Stops - the Aftermath of a Lethal Encounter"

I strongly urge every one of us to think through scenarios such as this. Daily carry makes it a duty as far as I am concerned.

Whichever of the options you choose above at the top, be prepared to follow through without suffering the 'Paralysis of Analysis'. Think it through and commit to yourself what you'd do. Carrying a firearm is serious business and moving to draw commits you to one course of action or another. You must be prepared and you must think it through in advance.
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Old May 27, 2005, 08:41 AM   #49
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What would you say

So long *******.
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Old May 27, 2005, 08:56 AM   #50
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Well, I guess we should be glad that this forum exists for macho chest-thumping, maybe it keeps some of that sort of thing out of the real world.
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