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Old July 7, 2017, 11:35 PM   #26
mete
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When NYPD went from revolver to semi-auto the hit probability went down close to 10 % hits. Don't have the latest numbers but still low.
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Old July 8, 2017, 08:00 AM   #27
4V50 Gary
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Tom - are you suggesting the Fairbairn stuck with point shooting because the sights on their firearms were miserably poor (which they are by our standards today)?

Training and training standards do change. The 1860s era musketry manuals of the British Army included a lot of dry firing (they had lead balls sitting on the nipples to absorb the impact of the hammer) and their course of fire was a mere 60 rounds. As interpreted by the Confederates who adopted the training methodology from the Hythe, it was even less. Some men fired only two shots a day at targets placed at 500 yards distance.

Most law enforcement agencies provide 50 rounds a month for practice in addition to qualification (probably 3 x a year). That works out to 600 rounds per year that are provided - if the officer takes the initiative to use those 50 rounds a month. Not all do (guns are just part of the job) and I used to buy ammo from my coworkers at $5 a box. It was good ammo at a great price for me and for the coworkers who sold it, extra money that their wives didn't know about.

Perhaps the biggest follower of the Fairbairn/Applegate school today are the Israelis. They still use the wide horse stance that lowers the body. I'll have to check out U-tube to figure out what dynamics they introduce to their training. I know sometimes their students have to weave through stationary objects while engaging their targets.
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Old July 8, 2017, 09:17 AM   #28
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Ok
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Old July 12, 2017, 07:48 PM   #29
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I have, sitting on my desk, a copy of Shooting to Live, by W. E. Fairbairn and E. A. Sykes. It is a somewhat re-written text based on the Shanghai Constabulary training manual for handguns.

I encourage everyone interested in the art of armed self-defense to read the book (ninety-six pages including pictures).

Please note the following: Shanghai was a rather 'wide open' city with little respect for laws, lawmen or life in general at the time. Fairbairn and Sykes started their training program from nearly nothing. The goal was to save officer's lives, not tabulate scores for administrators to show and brag about. The Constabulary armed the officers with three different handguns. British officers carried Colt Government Models in .45 ACP; Chinese national officers carried Colt M1908 Hammerless Pocket Pistols (openly in holsters) in .380 ACP; and the Sikh officers carried Webley revolvers in .455 Webley caliber. So a range of handguns were employed all officers were trained in the same course of instruction.

The results are rather striking.

Fairbairn and Sykes did, in fact, train 'point shooting'. However, they advocated aimed fire at distances more than four meters - just better than sixteen feet.
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Old July 13, 2017, 08:10 AM   #30
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Here is some historical fact on Col. Copper


1961 publication written by Jeff Cooper titled "The complete book of modern handgunning"

Page 101
"Pistol shooting may be divided into two broad classes: sighted and unsighted. Each class has two subdivisions, making four types in all."
The accompanying table shows how it's broken down
Page 102
"It may seem that while most of the sporting or recreational uses fall into type 1, the major practical values will be found in type 2 through 4. Naturally, if sporting competition is conducted to include type 3 and 4, practical and sporting use will coincide. While many excellent performers have chosen to devote themselves to just one of the four types of pistol shooting, no man can consider himself to be a real pistolero until he can excel in all four."

The accompanying series of photos shows Cooper drawing from a shoulder holster to something akin to Bryce [ not quite 1/2 hip, but not quite 3/4 hip ]. He states the sequence should take about .60 seconds





Same book, page 113

Point, this is the basic type 3 position. It is not for sporting position, except in the sense hat combat competition is a sport. It is used for hitting a human enemy with great speed at ranges where instinct is not accurate enough but real precision is not necessary-roughly 5-20 yards." ------

"First, the pistol is not raised fully into the sight line. The eyes focused on the target, not the sights, for this is unsighted shooting"-----

"I have seen one distinguished pistol shot draw a 45 auto-pistol from a safe condition, fire five shots, reload and fire five more, all 10 striking in a 12" circle at 10 yards, in 4 1/2 seconds--using this position. That's roughly one second to draw one second to reload and 10 killing hits placed in 2 1/2 seconds. It can be done." The accompanying photo shows Cooper in the point shoulder firing position [ one of the skills taught by myself and others ].

Type 4 instinctive shows Cooper once again in the quasi Bryce/1/2 hip firing position. "The eyes are focused on the target, not the sights, for this is unsighted shooting."----
"This is the indoor, arms length, maximum-speed, fighting stance It's hardly precise but it can produce dinner plate accuracy with blinding speed at the ranges which combat pistols are normally used. This is sometimes called hip shooting"
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Old July 13, 2017, 02:29 PM   #31
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Here is some historical fact on Col. Copper


1961 publication written by Jeff Cooper titled "The complete book of modern handgunning"...
Interesting history, but things did not stop there. Jeff Cooper, together with others who formed the Southwest Pistol League continued to experiment with, and test ways of using handguns for effective defense. What evolved through that process was The Modern Technique of the Pistol (as codified, with Jeff Cooper's blessing, by Greg Morrison in The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991)

One of the cornerstones of the Modern Technique is the flash sight picture.

Here's how the flash sight picture works (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):
Quote:
...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistol fighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....
When I took my first class at Gunsite in 2002 the doctrine was, as it had been for years, The Modern Technique. Jeff Cooper was the Range Master (chief instructor) for the class, and we were taught to use our sights with a flash sight picture.
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Old July 13, 2017, 02:45 PM   #32
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Well did Jack Weaver use the weaver stance at the slap stick matches and continue to win against the other competitors
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Old July 13, 2017, 03:06 PM   #33
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by Eod1
Well did Jack Weaver use the weaver stance at the slap stick matches and continue to win against the other competitors...
That's where the Weaver stance, another cornerstone of the Modern Technique, came from. And Jack Weaver used his sights.
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Old July 13, 2017, 03:32 PM   #34
g.willikers
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Using the flash sight picture is the primary method for fast and accurate shooting.
No doubt the preponderance of successful competition shooters use it.
If the sights are available.
Point shooting skills become important when sights aren't available.
Knowing how to shoot in all kinds of ways, under as many conditions and situations as possible sounds like the best approach.
It's too easy to get bogged down with dogma and ignore potentially important and maybe even life saving techniques.
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Old July 13, 2017, 07:54 PM   #35
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G.willikers.Your right. I never said at any time front sight press is bad. It has its place as do the other 3 techniques. Just wanted to see who thought it was the only way. I use 1/2 hip out to 5 yards 3/4 hip out to 10 yards ,point shoulder out to 20 yards quick kill (under nose above chin) to 25 yards. Front sight press 25 and beyond. I've been trained in front sight press. I use it after 25 yards because point shooting to 25 is faster.
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Old July 14, 2017, 12:49 PM   #36
Bartholomew Roberts
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I guess that explains all the top IPSC shooters running around using 1/2 hip and point shoulder in their matches then.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; July 14, 2017 at 12:55 PM.
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Old July 14, 2017, 01:05 PM   #37
Glenn E. Meyer
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Enough nonsense, thanks Bart for the compelling illustration. That is good enough to close this.
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