The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 4, 2017, 02:06 PM   #26
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,837
Quote:
If someone, who is out to kill you, wants to kill you then there is no defense that will work.
Yet that is essentially the condition necessary for the justification of the use of deadly force for self defense.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old July 4, 2017, 02:28 PM   #27
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,584
OldMarksman,
You know as well as I that there is no defense from a sniper.
The same is true for a lot of different types of attack.
Happily those kinds of attacks are rare and are not on the radar for most folks.
A violent confrontation often allows time for retreat, finding cover or at least concealment and access to ones weapon. I practice drawing from my holster under all kinds of conditions and positions. It is part of training. I am by no means a quick draw artist with my concealed carry but I can get it out and ready before most could react. That being said there are a lot of conditions that I would have to resort to "sleight of hand" to put it on target. I train for that too.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old July 4, 2017, 02:36 PM   #28
Skadoosh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,014
Kenny Rogers' "The Gambler" taught me everything I need to know about gambling and gunfights.
__________________
NRA Life Member
USN Retired
Skadoosh is offline  
Old July 4, 2017, 03:32 PM   #29
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,150
Maybe our focus should be less on draw speed and more on draw OPPORTUNITY. There are plenty of videos on the Active Self Protection YouTube channel of good guys who waited until the bad guy's attention was off of them, drew their guns surreptitiously, and got hits on target. Speed was less a factor than watching for opportunities......before the attack or during the attack.

Sent from my HTC Desire Eye using Tapatalk
seeker_two is offline  
Old July 4, 2017, 04:40 PM   #30
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,400
Just in case it hasn't been mentioned before, regarding the first post, there is a difference between game play and unscripted reality. No matter how elaborate the course is, even if the player doesn't see it until the bell rings, it can never approach the same level of chaos that a real interaction can involve. Do the courses ever include having bogies coming in from all corners of the compass, requiring the shooter to actually spin around and shoot behind himself? Do the range officers ever whomp the shooter with a club before blowing the whistle? What about adrenaline, a false condition of alertness brought on by anticipating the competition?

Training and learning how to shoot, gathering skills and versatility, picking up tricks about cover, you have one facet there. You have learned how to aim and pull your trigger and gotten some fundamental ideas about cover and moving, maybe.

Stage two is building versatility. Start from the idea that you aren't going to be mugged by a beer can or paper silhouette, and you probably won't be robbed at high noon at fifty paces.

Your trainer isn't going to walk you through town, explaining how to deal with a carjacking at this corner or a armed robbery at your bank, that is your own responsibility.

A person can choose to expend thousands of rounds of ammo doing drills, but that's not always going to be enough. That's the bottom line here. An Olympic free pistol shooter might make a great squirrel hunter, but does he have the versatility to hunt rabbits?
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 4, 2017, 08:25 PM   #31
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,837
Quote:
Just in case it hasn't been mentioned before, regarding the first post, there is a difference between game play and unscripted reality. No matter how elaborate the course is, even if the player doesn't see it until the bell rings, it can never approach the same level of chaos that a real interaction can involve. Do the courses ever include having bogies coming in from all corners of the compass, requiring the shooter to actually spin around and shoot behind himself? Do the range officers ever whomp the shooter with a club before blowing the whistle? What about adrenaline, a false condition of alertness brought on by anticipating the competition?

Training and learning how to shoot, gathering skills and versatility, picking up tricks about cover, you have one facet there. You have learned how to aim and pull your trigger and gotten some fundamental ideas about cover and moving, maybe.

Stage two is building versatility. Start from the idea that you aren't going to be mugged by a beer can or paper silhouette, and you probably won't be robbed at high noon at fifty paces.

Your trainer isn't going to walk you through town, explaining how to deal with a carjacking at this corner or a armed robbery at your bank, that is your own responsibility.

A person can choose to expend thousands of rounds of ammo doing drills, but that's not always going to be enough. That's the bottom line here. An Olympic free pistol shooter might make a great squirrel hunter, but does he have the versatility to hunt rabbits?
Well put.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old July 4, 2017, 10:10 PM   #32
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,837
Quote:
You can't square yourself to a target in the "real world"?
Of course you can. But it is not very realistic to start out that way and wait for a signal to draw.

"Real world" practice and training should address recognizing a threat from any direction and responding as quickly as possible.

And that involves more than drawing speed.

I happen to like the I.C.E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting (aka Dynamic Focus Shooing) approach. The threat may materialize from any angle. The student must recognize it, turn, move, draw while moving, and fire.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 12:00 AM   #33
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,400
One of the baddest gunmen in the world was shot in the back by a little sissy while he played five card draw. He had his back to the rear door. Another was shot in the back of the head while he was doing some light housework. I don't know how many murder victims never see it coming.

I think that it's pretty certain that most of the people killed in automobiles wake up in the afterlife wondering what happened.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 08:16 AM   #34
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,447
Most people will get so startled when surprised by a sudden act of aggression, they can't function quickly enough to be effective.
Not many places to train have a way to deal with that.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 08:50 AM   #35
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,837
Quote:
Not many places to train have a way to deal with that.
True. Many of us have had to travel some distance to get to the training.

With regard to practice, realistic live fire practice may not be readily accessible, but there are other important elements of the drills that can be practiced in many places.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 08:54 AM   #36
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,400
You can count on that, it's simply not in human nature to instinctively respond to sudden aggression with equal aggression. That's dangerous, and it has been bred out of us.even animals moderate their responses in absence of absolute certainty that an aggressive act is a genuine attack.

There were studies, experiments performed decades ago. People were put in darkened rooms with a screen and a notebook. Words were flashed on the screen, the subjects wrote them down. When obscene words were occasionally included, the subjects usually saw and answered with other words, such as duck, spit,pitch,etc.

Human nature leads us to hesitate and verify before lashing out at the guy who bumps into us. That hesitation is a blessing and a curse. Sometimes the bad guy does sucker punch you, other times it isn't what it seems.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 08:57 AM   #37
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,400
Marksman, paintball can provide some live fire exercise.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 04:14 PM   #38
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,647
I think paintball is a great resource. You can pick up a marker cheap if you check on MCarter Brown or even Craigslist. Any of the Tippmann Pro-Lites are boringly reliable.

I used to be the airsmith for the Ironmen who, at the time were the winningest team in paintball history. One of their players Marty Bush was the last guy to play with a pump action in the Pros. A drill he started was called the "Marty-Drill" where you'd find to similar sized trees about 25 feet apart and then it was "go-to-it!" and you's be surprised how much that drill feels like a short PPC barricade course. Lots of fun too.

Last edited by Slopemeno; July 5, 2017 at 04:27 PM.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 04:24 PM   #39
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,447
The paintball game seems to be more about military tactics than personal defense.
Paintball guns could easily be used for personal defense scenarios, though.
They leave no question about who got hit.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 04:32 PM   #40
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,048
Quote:
Of course you can. But it is not very realistic to start out that way and wait for a signal to draw.
No one said anything about waiting for a signal, but if you really want to be "realistic" there will be "signals" that tell you when you need to draw and when it's legal to draw.

Quote:
"Real world" practice and training should address recognizing a threat from any direction and responding as quickly as possible.
Quote:
The student must recognize it, turn, move, draw while moving, and fire.
No one has said any different.
One can often recognize a threat before an actual attack begins, allowing one more time to prepare.
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 05:20 PM   #41
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,647
The game can just be you and a friend in a vacant lot.

Organized fields don't really use military tactics. Pandemonium might be more accurate. They guy on your right might help you, or he might take off when it gets too crazy. You really have to learn to think on your feet, and to have a plan B, plan C,D etc.

Some of the most fun I've had playing has been 5 on 5 with basic pump guns. Simple, quick games where the emphasis is on quick turnaround. Don't like how the last game worked out? Another one is coming up in about 5 minutes.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old July 5, 2017, 06:01 PM   #42
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,400
I think that paintball is sometimes taken too seriously. The good thing about it is that it's kinda cheap, and legal. You can set up a course literally anywhere that you have a right to mess things up a bit. If a person has access to any private land, forest, maybe, take turn hiding targets in the Bush. I especially like the idea of having to run a 100 yard course of gallon jugs while other guys are free to pop you in the back as you do it.

Many years ago the army experimented with bb guns to do this.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old July 7, 2017, 10:05 AM   #43
Eod1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2017
Location: Some where
Posts: 126
I bought a couple of SIRT training guns all decked out. Before my wife leaves for work she puts 5 real looking targets around the house. When I wake up I get out of bed throw some cloths on put my SIRT gun in holster and go down stairs to get coffee. I have no idea where these targets are. So yes sometimes im not all awake just yet and they scare the sh#$ out of me. But I get them every time. Good training. nextleveltraining.com
Eod1 is offline  
Old July 7, 2017, 10:07 AM   #44
Eod1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2017
Location: Some where
Posts: 126
If you want to practice around the house i use a SIRT gun from nextleveltraining.com.
Eod1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08063 seconds with 10 queries