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Old August 3, 2011, 03:04 PM   #151
threegun
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I deal with customers of all shapes and sizes here at the pawnshop I manage. All are potential threats IMO. All capable of producing a weapon and robbing the joint. My point for this information is that sometimes someone comes in that raises my hackles even more. Why? I can't answer that because you just had to be here.

In the woods, alone, I think I would just have to be there to get the full feel of whether this stranger was a threat. Reading about it and living it are two different animals IMO. Especially with the unanswered but very important variables like are we on a trail, did the stranger change course to make contact, etc.

I have been in a few sticky situations and they simply cannot be described with enough feeling to give even a pinch of how crappy and fear filled I felt during the event.

I kinda feel that being in some close call situations makes you more understanding of how this could make one feel concerned for their safety.

I know this experience has caused me to never give any threatening stranger the benefit of the doubt at the expense of my immediate safety even at the risk crossing into the grey area.
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Old August 3, 2011, 03:13 PM   #152
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Posted by threegun: In the woods, alone, I think I would just have to be there to get the full feel of whether this stranger was a threat. Reading about it and living it are two different animals IMO. Especially with the unanswered but very important variables like are we on a trail, did the stranger change course to make contact, etc.
That's very true and it is well put. It also applies in urban and parking lot situations of the kinds we often read about here.

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I have been in a few sticky situations and they simply cannot be described with enough feeling to give even a pinch of how crappy and fear filled I felt during the event.
So have I, and that's true.

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I kinda feel that being in some close call situations makes you more understanding of how this could make one feel concerned for their safety.
Yes indeed.

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I know this experience has caused me to never give any threatening stranger the benefit of the doubt at the expense of my immediate safety even at the risk crossing into the grey area.
Good advice.

As Capt Charlie has said, "This is an excellent subject for discussion, as it's a real life scenario with no easy answers. "
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Old August 3, 2011, 04:04 PM   #153
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As Capt Charlie has said, "This is an excellent subject for discussion, as it's a real life scenario with no easy answers. "
To most of us, I think you included, I believe the answer is easy but out of the specification posted by the OP. **Simply move in a lateral direction , more commands to leave you alone, retreat, more commands to stop, pull, more commands to stop or else, point, more commands to stop or else, and finally defend.

**if the stranger is big enough to be able to justify them as a DOF threat.

The scenario as posted is definitely a doosy.
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Old August 3, 2011, 04:17 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by threegun
I deal with customers of all shapes and sizes here at the pawnshop I manage. All are potential threats IMO. All capable of producing a weapon and robbing the joint. My point for this information is that sometimes someone comes in that raises my hackles even more. Why? I can't answer that because you just had to be here.
This is a really good point. I also run a business that's open to the public, although my clients are a bit more "upscale" than those who frequent pawnshops. But the moment someone walks in the door, I can distinguish among potentially good clients, people who are canvassing or want to sell me something -- and people who just set off my hinky-meter. The latter are very rare, thankfully, and sometimes I know why they raise my hackles, sometimes I don't -- but I always trust that instinct. (And my 60# dog, who comes to work with me, has the same reaction to those people, which doesn't hurt.)

Good discussion, and one in which (for the most part) we've actually been listening to each other...
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Old August 3, 2011, 04:22 PM   #155
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It was fun also.
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Old August 3, 2011, 06:47 PM   #156
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I just came across this thread and don't have any argument or point to add except this is the one situation that concerns me the most. Not so much at a lake (don't go there much - never alone) but while getting gas, or elsewhere where anybody can approach me directly.

I wish there was a definitive answer supported by law but this seems pretty much you're toast no matter which way you go. I will say I haven't yet had anybody approach that had "Gonna Kill You" on his shirt but have had some with that 40 miles of bad road in drug county written all over them.

Overall good thread.
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Old August 3, 2011, 07:15 PM   #157
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Old Lincoln,

Try this next time someone targets you for panhandling or worst. Scenario you are pumping gas and unknown stranger makes a b line toward you. Once it becomes clear that he is coming to you but before he gets to close, ask him what he needs. If he continues tell him that he is close enough, again done well before he is on you. If he fails to stop tell him very loudly not to rob you that you have no money. At this point they have stopped every time apparently not wanting witnesses to think they were robbing you or maybe thinking you are a nut job since they hadn't announced a robbery.

A friend of mine shared this and it works.

P.S. If they continue to approach begin to maintain separation perhaps putting your car between you and the idiot.

This forces them to show their intent prior to making contact with you. You remain in control.
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Old August 4, 2011, 05:09 PM   #158
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I could have phrased this better

Wow, I go on a fishing trip to an isolated mountain lake with my girlfriend for a couple days and come back to find this thread really took off. (Just to clarify I ended up taking a can of bear spray along for the trip.)

My original phrasing could have been much more clear, I apologize, I was trying to get it typed up fairly quickly. Though its a little late in the thread to change anything, Ill try to clarify on some things.

John's "Unarmed person approaching" title, would have probably been more appropriate. But yes, the thread was biased toward the possibilty of the man being a lethal threat, which is why it is posted on this forum.

The state would be Arizona. The man would be walking toward the lake, you didn't see where he came from, but behind him is a clearing about the size of a football field, with nothing but trees behind it. No visible structures. And you have waved to him, and attempted to greet him in a friendly manner before he got too close. No response. Just eye contact, and continued advancement. For the sake of the argument, I would say that you did change your position, and he continued advancing toward you, not the spot you were originally standing. You have strong reason to believe he intends to make physical contact with you.

The scenario was intended to analyze how to recognize and deal with the worst-case-scenario of a criminal who may have seen an attractive woman fishing from a distance, and noticed she was carrying a gun. He liked the idea of having the woman, he liked the idea of having the gun, he could easily overpower the woman, and he does not believe she would actually shoot him before he could take away the gun. Or similar circumstance. But, we do not know any of this information beforehand, so how should we deal with the man approaching? At what point should the gun be drawn? At what point should the trigger be pulled?

Again, I found no perfect solution to this. So I opted to carry a can of bear spray in addition to my SP101, and me and my girlfriend stayed together the whole time. Im happy to report that the few people we did encounter were all very friendly and interesting, and we had a great time.
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Old August 4, 2011, 06:56 PM   #159
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Glad to hear you had a nice trip.

Yep, "friendly and interesting" is pretty much the norm for the folks I meet in the backcountry. The farther I am from the road, the less I worry, and if I've put a 2.5 k portage between me and road/powerboat access... I'm a very relaxed camper.

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And you have waved to him, and attempted to greet him in a friendly manner before he got too close. No response. Just eye contact, and continued advancement. For the sake of the argument, I would say that you did change your position, and he continued advancing toward you, not the spot you were originally standing. You have strong reason to believe he intends to make physical contact with you.
Yeah, seven pages later, I think we've established that this one is a tough call. That said, if someone is bent on mischief (or worse), and sees that you're moving off-line, moving away, and knows you're carrying a gun, if he's halfway smart, he'll be talking to you in a "disarming" fashion in order to get closer: "Hey, I'm lost, do you have a topo map?" -- or something else along those lines.

If someone maintains a totally silent approach and keeps coming even in the face of avoidance, even in the face of a drawn weapon, in my mind there would be only one possible explanation:

He's one of the undead... a... zombie...

(Just call me "Threadkiller." )
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Old August 4, 2011, 07:43 PM   #160
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my thing is he could've been abducted by aliens though and thus still disoriented. All joking aside, heavily wooded areas are hotspots for those from out of this world
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Old August 4, 2011, 09:44 PM   #161
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Zombies are a whole different thread, Vanya. Are talking the slow, shambling Walking Dead or the scary, running 28 Days Later or I Am Legend??
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Old August 5, 2011, 06:23 AM   #162
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Funny how most of us added the movement to the scenario, now even including the OP. Seems we all have a good idea of what is necessary to have justification.
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Old August 5, 2011, 01:28 PM   #163
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Scenario : You are fishing off the shore at an isolated lake in the mountains, in the distance you see a man approaching you. You are openly carrying. He has no apparent weapons, and is walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner. As he gets close to you, you turn to face him, and he continues approaching, closing in closer than 7 yards. You tell him to stop, he continues approaching, as if he did not hear you. You draw your weapon and point it at him while yelling at him to stop. He continues approaching.
Why would you draw a weapon on a unarmed man?
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Old August 5, 2011, 06:20 PM   #164
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Why would you draw a weapon on a unarmed man?
Ask that question when you fail to draw on Uriah Faber who is intent on robbing you. Some folks are a threat even without a weapon. If they act in a threatening mannor then you must prepare your defense before they can deploy thier weapons. In this case hands and feet.

The OP added some stuff a few posts ago. Might help you understand why he drew.
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Old August 8, 2011, 04:31 PM   #165
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Ask that question when you fail to draw on Uriah Faber who is intent on robbing you
This makes no sense at all, is this the guy walked up on the fishing man? Unarmed is unarmed.

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Some folks are a threat even without a weapon.
Yes, some us are never really needed a weapon, took a few off guys in my work when I was young.

So I read the piece about a girl and a gun and a guy who liked to have them, so it was a girl? Then I say draw and take aim, girls have a higher rate of being attacked in this type of scenario. My daughter is soon to take her class and get a CCW of her own.

After 7 pages I thought it would be clearer why he would draw on a guy walking towards him.
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Old August 8, 2011, 04:53 PM   #166
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Uriah Faber is a MMA champion and certified bad dude. My point was allowing a stranger to make contact with you, even though unarmed, is like playing Russian roulette. If they have bad intent you will likely be injured or killed should they suddenly attack.

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After 7 pages I thought it would be clearer why he would draw on a guy walking towards him.


The OP modified his original post and it goes as follows. You are alone in the middle of nowhere woods fishing. You see a stranger approaching your position. You change your position only to have him adjust his to make contact. You attempt to open friendly dialog which goes ignored. You command him to stop closing on you and that goes ignored. You now draw on him.
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Old August 9, 2011, 03:56 PM   #167
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The OP modified his original post and it goes as follows. You are alone in the middle of nowhere woods fishing. You see a stranger approaching your position. You change your position only to have him adjust his to make contact. You attempt to open friendly dialog which goes ignored. You command him to stop closing on you and that goes ignored. You now draw on him.
I saw that, also saw some stuff about a girl?

So did this really happen? and if so what was the outcome?
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Old August 9, 2011, 04:21 PM   #168
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No it was a scenario the OP created to address a legit concern. It takes us right to the line between being legal and illegal. Between being safe and in danger. Great scenario very thought provoking.

The girl was simply a substitution to the scenario. What if the lone good guy was a gal? Would that change the legal outcome.
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Old August 9, 2011, 04:44 PM   #169
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I see. but havent seen many solo gal fisherwomen in the wilds where I hike and fish I usually see no one else.

So is that mma guy someone that goes around whupping folks? or was he used as a tough guy image?

Guess I just dont see an unarmed person as a threat. Must be me, but I just wouldnt draw a gun in that situation.

I would offer him a fish or a rock. or a tree branch or a .......
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Old August 9, 2011, 06:52 PM   #170
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So is that mma guy someone that goes around whupping folks? or was he used as a tough guy image?
I used Faber because he looks like a little surfer dude that anyone could easily whip yet would be more than most could handle even if bigger. To high lite the danger of allowing someone to get up on you even if they are unarmed.
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Old August 10, 2011, 02:31 PM   #171
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I used Faber because he looks like a little surfer dude that anyone could easily whip yet would be more than most could handle even if bigger
OK I see. Something to think about. We go fishing a lot but in a boat. Never met a person like that while enjoying the great outdoors.

I did come off a pheasant hunt one time to find my radiator was shot.
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