Franklin BFS vs. Fostech Echo vs. Tac Con 3MR

[nomad636]

So, I just called fostech to follow up with them as to where the triggers are at and find out whether they have started shipping or not. I was told that they haven't started shipping yet due to a production error. Apparently there are some issues with the tolerances after the coating was applied and they are having to revamp and re run the first two production runs. I would think that this would have been verified earlier on.... but hey, I'm not an engineer.

Needless to day, I was told that they should start shipping in July sometime. So what that means for me is that since my order was placed in Feb. (1 month after they started accepting pre-orders) then I should be receiving my trigger in July sometime with either the first or second production run.

This coating had better be something spectacular..... and not just chrome. I'm thinking NP3 or Platinum. Hell, even plutonium would work.

They should be posting an update on their website and sending out a mass e-mail to everyone that had pre-ordered.

~Nomad636

[Skans]

That's not good news. Do you believe them? I'm not sure I do - it just doesn't add up. None of the parts appear to be coated other than perhaps blued. My guess is that after testing some of the parts suffered critical failures and they don't want to air this.

The least they could do is post updates on their website. They don't for some reason....this also doesn't give me "warm fuzzies".

[nomad636]

I do believe that the first hiccup was when a part didn't come in on time or was faulty. I'm not so sure about this most recent hiccup though. Doing a little math at $200 per down payment and averaging 100 down payments a month (estimate) from Jan until now they would have taken in an easy $100,000. You would think that the least they could do is keep their "investors" apprised of the situation. I did pull the 100 orders a month from thin air. But I believe it to be a conservative estimate considering that ordering a trigger at the first of last month would result in a December delivery.

I'm looking forward to the trigger. I just wish they would provide more information.

[Skans]

On second thought, it is possible they haven't paid a supplier and that could be what is holding up delivery of the parts. If I were Fostech, I'd be making as many as I possibly can in-house to at least fulfill some orders and get some positive feedback on this.

[nomad636]

I agree. From the video that Iraqveteran888 posted of his testing of the trigger, I didn't see any flaws with it. One would think that these "holdups" could have been avoided and if not they would be up front and personal with their customers regarding the status of the triggers.

That being said, I still say it is better to wait for this than buy the Franklin BFS trigger. One of my co-workers orderd a franklin rifle with the BFS trigger. He had nothing but problems getting the rifle with the right trigger. The rifle he ordered was supposed to be cerekoted.... turns out.... it was just F(*King Spray Paint. They never made the trigger right..... and just sent him a BFS trigger to install. He had his gunsmith install it... and the gunsmith reported that it was the biggest PITA trigger hes ever installed. He said there is no way to pull the trigger to clean the lower. Good Luck.

So.... after all of that.... I'm still waiting for the Fostech Echo.

[GUShooter08]

I was intrigued by a video posted by The Military Arms Channel about the BFS trigger. He was having a "hammer follows" problem with his gun, where the trigger operation is too fast for the action and the hammer actually follows the bolt forward leaving an unspent round in the chamber. I was researching other youtube videos and I found another person who stated that he used a low mass BCG and heavier buffer spring, and it worked near perfectly for him.

after watching all of this, I decided to order a BFS trigger at the end of March/beginning of April 2016 time frame. It arrived in about a month or so. The installation process took 3 days. I have an Area 53 billet lower and the trigger sat to high, not allowing me to install the trigger and pins. instructions show that I have to file down the "cups" that hold the shims in place... after several hours of filing and test fitting I was able to install the trigger assembly with the required safety selector in my lower.

about 2 or 3 weeks later I was able to take my rifle to the range and test fire it. I have a custom built rifle upper, with a carbine length gas system, 16" chrome lined hammer forged Rainier Mountain series barrel, matching Area 53 billet upper and NiB coated BCG. My lower was running a JP captured spring. I ran about 300 rounds through my rifle, with American Eagle XM 193 556 and XTAC green tip 556 ammo. I had a hammer follow or 2 with every magazine.

I was frustrated and realized I need the low mass BCG and a stiffer spring, I ordered a Rubber city low mass BCG and the alternate spring set for the JP captured spring. I also bought an adjustable gas key but wasn't able to install it on the BCG(the stock key was staked in very well.) I swapped the BCG's and installed the yellow spring(second most stiffest) into my lower and went to the range...

and it works perfectly... ran 3 full 30 round mag dumps with no failures. see my video in the link below.

https://youtu.be/EnbVr8_b9Xk

the trigger works... I love it.

I also ordered the Fostech Echo Trigger at the end of April 2016, I am hoping to have it by September or October. When I do I will post another video comparing the two with the same upper.

[nomad636]

I also ordered the Fostech Echo Trigger at the end of April 2016, I am hoping to get it by September or October. When I do I will post another video comparing the two with the same upper.

How do you like the BFS trigger? Is it everything you thought it would be? Is the trigger comparable to a match trigger like a timney or Geissele, or more like a standard - Milspec trigger?

[GUShooter08]

At first the trigger feels like any 2 stage trigger, breaks at about 4.5-5 lbs, with some creep and grit, but 400 rounds later it is smoother. it is not a match trigger for sure. My previous trigger in the lower I am using with the BFS trigger was a Geissele Super 3 gun flat trigger... That broke at about 3 lbs... If you are looking for a match trigger and have the same action as the BFS, the Echo trigger is said to be that. The BFS trigger is loads of fun, as you can see in my video... I will have to revisit my ammo budget now lol

[Skans]

How was the BFS trigger to install and get working - supposedly it is difficult?

[GUShooter08]

The install was the only hard part... It took me 2-3 days, several hours since the trigger sat too high in my lower. I needed to file the bottom down... According to Franklin armory, .003" is the difference between success and failure during the install... That means the install has to really be tight and precise. I took my time and was patient... Now the trigger works perfectly.

[Skans]

Thanks for that information. Sounds like something I could handle. If the Echo doesn't start shipping real soon, I'm thinking about buying the BFS and then just sell which ever one I like the least if/when I ever receive the Echo.

[GUShooter08]

Just keep in mind that you will need a Low Mass BCG and a heavier buffer spring for your AR to function reliably at "Rapid Fire" mode

[tirod]

Thanks for posting and keeping us up to date.

As said in the OP it's about having a near full auto rate of fire while abiding by the NFA and closed registry for those without access or money for a full auto gun.

The current prices are somewhat exorbitant, beyond what should be expected for a low production item like a side charger. This is where the market place will likely do two things in the next product - lower the price, improve the performance.

I'm probably not alone in thinking that "I can wait it out" and that there will be a better product along in the next year. Could the ATF choose to backtrack on it's previous findings of legality, yes. But the track record over the last 25 year has been to find technological answers which gut the NFA's effectiveness.

As far as the actual trigger it's not necessarily working toward the better application by trying to insist it also act as a long distance precision sniper or high end competition trigger. Light springs and short resets are the antithesis of how a trigger working both backwards and forwards might need to work.

Given the ATF's penchant for fooling with interpretation we may need to accommodate their idea of legality with a trigger that is ring shaped - one that requires you to push it forward or backwards to release the sear in either direction. That would make it a truer "trigger" than one already predisposed to firing on release. It would then require 6 pounds of force either way and not leave the question of "Will this go off if I let go of it?" be hanging. And despite how unsafe it sounds, it would not require flipping the safety on to set the gun aside.

Considering the volley firing tactics of the NYPD I could see them installing them on their duty Glocks. It would suit the tactic of firing until slide lock highly recommended by some self defense internet experts, too.

Lots to look forward to. A drop in would be nice as then I could change it out from Hunting to SD as needed for an AR pistol. Or - both, by using the full auto position.

[Skans]

I note that the Fostech Outdoors Echo Trigger web page has been updated to make initial deliveries in the 3rd quarter rather than 2nd quarter:

"ECHO TRIGGERS ARE CURRENTLY ESTIMATED TO START SHIPPING IN THE THIRD QUARTER OF 2016"

They were initially due to ship in February 2016.

[GUShooter08]

I had to change my last post... This trigger was made to simulate bump fire stocks rate of fire without having to install that ugly furniture on your AR. There is use for this type of trigger, mainly for competition or tactical use where "double tap" shots are desired. I hope the ATF does not change their minds and classify this trigger as "full auto". It is a great product that requires less effort and skill to use compared to bump fire stocks.

A side note, the trigger does hang up sometimes in Binary mode. When I pull the trigger, rarely the hammer does not drop, but when I release it always goes of. It happened a couple of times during my mag dump in the video. Otherwise it works great.

Regarding the Echo Trigger delivery time. I understand the frustration some of us are feeling about the delivery delay. If Fostech comes through and deliver on what they promise, producing what the BFS trigger does and be a match trigger, The wait will definitely be worth it.

Safe shooting everybody

[nomad636]

I will update you when I have a reply from Fostech. Below is the e-mail that I sent them moments ago.

Good Afternoon,

I wanted to follow up as I saw a new update to your website regarding the Echo Triggers. It appears that was was originally slated as an April 2016 shipment has been pushed back until a July - September shipment with no real target shipping date in site.

As a person who placed a pre-order in February, I would like to have an accurate update and perhaps some additional information as to why the shipping date of the initial orders keeps being pushed back. I noted on your facebook page that Fostech commented on a post and stated that the initial orders of triggers would be shipping in May.

Perhaps you guys would be willing to provide me with an update so that I can understand what happened with the initial target date and why it keeps being pushed back repeatedly. As I have several friends that placed orders around the same time as myself, I have been told by a few of them that they are thinking of cancelling their order with you and purchasing the Franklin Armory BFS trigger as that is available for shipment immediately. They feel that the lack of formal communication from Fostech regarding shipping and the delays that have impacted you is not ok.

I'm having a hard time convincing them that the Fostech Trigger is better than the BFS.

Can you assist me in understanding where you guys are at and what an accurate shipping date would be? Is it that you guys are providing triggers for large distributor orders prior to the individual orders people have placed with you directly?

[Skans]

I went ahead and purchased the Franklin Binary System. I received it within 1 week of ordering it. I still have my deposit out on the Echo, but I am glad I've got one in my hand. Who knows, if I ever get the Echo, I may just keep both. I don't want to be screwing around with trying to get one as the election nears. Yes, this was a bit of a panic buy - I'm not above a little panic buying....sometimes.

I won't call this a "review", since I just received the device and haven't even installed it, but let me at least give you my first impressions:

The first thing I did was read the manual. The instructions are good. And, despite all the warning about having to have a Franklin armorer install the device, this just doesn't look too difficult. Unless my lower is out-of-spec, it's just a matter of shimming or trimming until you can line up the trigger and hammer pins to where they can be pressed in (partially) by hand. The "shimming", if necessary, amounts to trimming up two peal-away shims that are provided using a razor. If I have difficulty with doing this with a razor, I may opt to use a fine hand-file. You may want a good caliper (which I have) just to check measurements, but I'm doubting this is even necessary. I'll probably take measurement, just because I like to measure stuff.

The "trimming", if necessary amounts to using a fine hand file, or maybe even a stone, to remove a little material (small circular castings) on the bottom of the device - This too should be simple for anyone who has done anything like installing a ghost trigger on a Glock. In fact, it looks like it would be a lot like that - file a bit, then check (frequently), file a bit then check, etc. We'll see, I haven't tried it yet.

The hammer/trigger/disconnector unit has some heft to it, but I like this - it is robust, all steel, nicely machined and finished. There are 7 main components - the housing, trigger, a binary disconnector, semi disconnector, backup disconnector , a spring (all part of the main unit) and a selector switch which is not part of the main unit. Apparently the backup disconnector is designed to prevent hammer-follow, which was something I thought this unit did not have. It looks like they did think through this.

This is not something you can make yourself - not even close! The hammer has been completely re-engineered, not to mention the entire housing. It amazes me that it takes something this sophisticated to replicate what a staple will do in a Mini-14. In any event, this looks to be a nice piece of engineering.

One thing I'm not too crazy about is the sticker that goes on your lower receiver for the selector that says "safe, semi, binary". It just doesn't do such a nice piece of equipment justice. The fire control unit is anything but cheaply made! Maybe I can find someone to engrave my receiver with these designations locally, but then the receiver would pretty much be dedicated to this trigger system.

Another thing I noticed is that the trigger uses tiny roll pins in three areas to retain small components like springs. These roll pins look like they could be quite difficult to remove, if the device ever needed servicing.

They use an interesting copper coloring on the trigger - not sure why, maybe this is a proprietary thing, or part of a warning "HEY, this ain't your ordinary trigger". I like the coloring, but if this trigger becomes "gray-area" or controversial, well it'll stick out.

The trigger does have an etched serial number on it. This is probably a good thing as it can be determined when it was manufactured.

I'm really looking forward to installing this in my AR and trying it out. I want to make sure I have a block of time to do this right.

[Skans]

I received my Binary Trigger a couple of days ago and installed it last night. Successfully! I can cycle the action in both "semi" and "binary", and it seems to work exactly the way it should.

Installation took me about 2.5 hours. You must read and re-read the instructions first. There is no question that this part will need to be hand fitted. On my lower receiver, I needed to trim, not shim. This means filing down the two protruding circles on the bottom of the trigger until I could push in the trigger and hammer pins by hand, being careful not to over-trim. IIRC, the tolerance you have to work with is within .003". I will say that you can just about see when the pin holes line up, but after that, it's really by feel.

My precision caliper wasn't much help either - you really have to do this little by little by touch and sight. I ended up having to file down almost all of the circular rings, which is why it took so long.

At one point, I thought I had it. I wacked the pins with the plastic end of a screwdriver and got them to go in, but it was a tight fit. (You don't want to put the pins all the way through until you have it fitted correctly, or you will put unnecessary wear on the pin retaining wires - this is explained in the instructions). When I tried the action, it wouldn't work in Semi-auto. The instructions clearly explained that if this happens, you need to trim more. So, I did until I could slide the pins in by hand. Finally, I got the pins to slide in by hand and when I checked the action, in Semi and Binary, it worked consistently!

WARNING - you really have to be careful not to take too much off, but those pins really do need to slide in with no resistance.

Installing this trigger is not rocket science, but it requires extreme patience. Having never installed one, you really don't know what to expect. After installing this one, I get it - the selector really is an integral part of this unit - it needs to mesh precisely with the trigger/hammer housing, otherwise the three disconnectors won't work properly. I had to file the two rings nearly flush with the bottom of the unit. This probably means that my lower is spec and FA adds the rings for lowers that are cut a little too deep.

Overall, a very interesting piece of engineering. Once properly installed, it fits perfectly. However, I can see why Franklin Armory would rather do the installation themselves.

I can't wait to try this bad-boy out!!!

[GUShooter08]

Just saw this video today..

https://youtu.be/o5ONpFy-QR8

Apparently Franklin Armory made a newer, simplified version of the BFS that doesn't have the back up disconnector. Pre-orders supposedly start on or after the Fourth of July, with delivery starting mid-August... I dunno if I should order one... Still waiting on my Echo Trigger.

[nomad636]

I'm on the fence even more so after watching the video regarding the Gen 3 BFS trigger. Please see my corrospondence with Judd Foster with Fostech Manufacturing below:

7/5/16
Hi Judd,

I wanted to follow up with you on the Echo trigger. Our last correspondence (see below) indicated that the trigger should be shipping around the second week in June. I haven't heard any updates yet, and wanted to make sure that I didn't miss something. When should I plan on sending Fostech the remainder of the balance for the trigger?

7/5/16 - Same Day Reply
You did not miss anything. We have had two large hurdles with parts coming in out of specification. Though this is not my fault it is most definitely my problem. All the early customers will get an advantage of some sort. Not sure if it will be a bolt carrier or some other discount but FosTecH will make it right by you. Currently we are looking at early September. We will also offer you a full refund because we have not hit our target. I hope to keep your business but understand that we have missed the date for you on two separate occasions.

-Judd

[GUShooter08]

Took my AR out again yesterday and ran about 200 round through it... Experienced one "hammer follow" light primer strike. Ammo used was XM193 556 ball. I noticed that my AR dry was running dry. I Added a little CLP to the BCG and no more failures. This trigger is fast. Love it. Only problems are ammo runs out fast, my ammo budget $$$ and cleaning lol... Stay safe and have fun everyone.

[Skans]

Just an FYI - the Franklin Binary Trigger might be able to be had for $350. (I just noticed that there is a reserve, however ) If someone gets it for that price, that's a good deal - I paid a bit over $400 for mine with shipping. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/571472813

If I see these trigger systems drop more in price, I'm going to buy another. These things have individual serial numbers on them. If our gvt ever bans production of them, at least it will be easy to tell which ones are grandfathered. If the gvt ever bans them altogether, then maybe I don't want to be holding a handful of them?

[toos]

I'm very interested in this trigger but now see it requires a special BCG. The video says you can use your own BCG but it might cause problems. What problems? Minutes of mag dumps and a one second mention of problems is not very informative.

The BCG sans bolt and other internals reportedly comes with the kit but I'm a fan of NiB BCGs. It also means a pistol caliber or piston BCG won't be useable.

Can anyone tell me more about the BCG issue

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pcIMERWjhiw

[nomad636]

I'm thinking that the reason it comes with a bcg is that the safety that does t allow the bolt to follow the hammer is resting or catching in the modified hammer groove on the bottom of the BCG. So, it will still work with other bcg but there is the possibility of hammer follow. Overall though it looks like a pretty solid setup.

[GUShooter08]

Just watched the review of the Echo Trigger by Military Arms Channel... And he highly recommenda that trigger system. And it comes with a special Bolt Carrier specially made for the trigger. Check out the review.


https://youtu.be/pcIMERWjhiw

I cant wait to get mine.