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Old December 17, 2020, 02:00 PM   #26
Shadow9mm
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I can't imagine doing all that in a cube farm without everyone around you noticing what you're doing.



Ya think?
people can be pretty oblivious, but all it would take is 1 to notice and it would go around the office like lightning.
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Old December 17, 2020, 06:10 PM   #27
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It Was MANDATORY The Company even paid for our C.C. Permit .
Oh By The Way Company Is KELTEC
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Old December 17, 2020, 06:43 PM   #28
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It Was MANDATORY The Company even paid for our C.C. Permit .
Oh By The Way Company Is KELTEC
Nice!
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Old December 17, 2020, 07:46 PM   #29
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I RETIRED IN 2016 Worked their for 20+ years.
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Old December 18, 2020, 04:30 PM   #30
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The first thing I look for is how well I can hold it. How does it feel on my hand? I was at a gun show a few weeks ago and found a Smith model 28 I'd been looking for for a long time. I've had them before, but sold them off. When I held this one, it just wasn't the same. Not a good choice for EDC.
Then, I look at what my friends carry. I have some friends who buy something just to get the job done. Another friend is the guy who buys top of the line right from Cajun Gun Works. I try to get in between those extremes.
Finally, I decide how I'm going to carry - pocket, belt, etc. Is it always going to be on my person, or will I take it out when I get into a vehicle? Can I take it out of the holster and put it back in unobtrusively?
So, I pocket-carry a SIG P365 that can easily go on my belt, and can be drawn or holstered easily. An extra magazine rides in the other pocket.
I carried a Ruger LCR in 38 for awhile, but it hurt to shoot.
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Old December 18, 2020, 04:36 PM   #31
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As I understand it, OP is not asking what he should carry, but how he can decide rationally what to carry.

It is really a personal decision. It sounds like you are on your way in considering worst case scenarios and what you might need to respond. No one can be prepared for everything at every moment, and attempts to do so become comically absurd. At the same time, planning for just the "average" encounter means that nearly half of the possible incidents will be beyond your capability.

Whatever you carry, you are better prepared than the overwhelming majority of today's citizenry. You sound like a thinking person. Keep working the problem, imagining scenarios and how to deal with them, and equip yourself thus. Most people don't carry anything, and among the few that do most carry a pistol or revolver that they are comfortable both concealing and shooting, and I imagine a majority carry a reload in case of mechanical failure. Find your comfort level in that zone and you will be fine.
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Old December 18, 2020, 05:01 PM   #32
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As I understand it, OP is not asking what he should carry, but how he can decide rationally what to carry.
That's pretty close. I'm comfortable with one of my Glocks and two reloads. I'm really more trying to understand the mindset that thinks carrying an SBR at work is best practices
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Old December 19, 2020, 06:52 AM   #33
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What do you require in a defensive pistol? Depends on your age, do you actually work, are you retired? And of course, what State you live in.
I lived in Canada for 36 years, no carry of pistols for non Law Enforcement.
Now as a US Citizen, living in Florida, retired firearms instructor. I carry every day. The same pistol. Glock 19 spare G17 magazine (two extra rounds) a folding knife, a Surefire light, in a belt holster. Hot weather Florida Shirt, cold weather, sweater/coat? Keep our Jeep Cherokee in the garage, always, it never stays on the street. Monitored alarm. Remote on, remote off.

The only part that ever malfunctioned, the factory purchased extended slide lock. (slide release?) broke. Happened at the range, whilst my Son and I were taking our yearly re-qual. G-License.
That is the only fault I have ever had with a Glock pistol, ever. A 9mm 15+1 is a real good loadout. Outside the belt holster, strong side, at around 4-30.
Purchased a Glock 43X 10+1, very slim, it came with steel night sights.
But I still go back to the G19! I shoot it the best. Which is what counts, yes?
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Old December 19, 2020, 07:25 AM   #34
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As We Age Your Carry Weapon Of Choice Changes .
After Years Of Carrying . You Find What Works For YOU
Started In 1982 Mouse Guns To Big Guns Revolvers To Autos .
Now Down To SIG 365 9MM,S&W MP40 C Or RUGER SP101357 mag
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Old December 19, 2020, 02:30 PM   #35
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I've had a couple of DGUs but I've never had to shoot anyone or even at anyone.
That is not a DGU. That is brandishing, not saying it was illegal but...

If I feel the need for a rifle I probably would not go as I am semi retired and not required to intervene any longer.
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Old December 19, 2020, 02:38 PM   #36
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That is not a DGU. That is brandishing, not saying it was illegal but...

If I feel the need for a rifle I probably would not go as I am semi retired and not required to intervene any longer.
Nope.

I don't remember the guy's name but he did the study about how there are two million (estimated) DGUs every year and most of them end without any shots being fired. According to his terms it was a DGU or what Arizona would call a Defensive Display.

To Brandish is

Quote:
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

"a man leaped out brandishing a knife"
Either way I'm not going to argue semantics. In either case had the person continued the behavior that prompted me to draw in the first place I would have fired
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Old December 19, 2020, 07:11 PM   #37
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I don't remember the guy's name but he did the study about how there are two million (estimated) DGUs every year and most of them end without any shots being fired. According to his terms it was a DGU or what Arizona would call a Defensive Display.
By those standards I have been involved in over a thousand DGU's. Working as a cop in the inner city my MO was: When in doubt, whip it out.
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Old December 19, 2020, 07:39 PM   #38
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By those standards I have been involved in over a thousands DGU's. Working as a cop in the inner city my MO was: When in doubt, whip it out.
I understand what you're saying. I think the guy's name was Kleck(?) and he's supposed to be an expert, he says it's a DGU.

Either way you know what I'm trying to say and anything else is just you trying to be the smartest guy in the room.
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Old December 19, 2020, 07:43 PM   #39
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Either way you know what I'm trying to say and anything else is just you trying to be the smartest guy in the room.
Oh I get what you are saying. I always looked at a DGU as a defensive shooting. That seperates the wheat from the chaff.

That would be Gary Kleck.

Only when I am alone am I the smartest one in the room.................
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Old December 19, 2020, 09:15 PM   #40
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Oh I get what you are saying. I always looked at a DGU as a defensive shooting. That seperates the wheat from the chaff.

That would be Gary Kleck.

Only when I am alone am I the smartest one in the room.................
I'm almost positive I'm going to say this wrong but if Kleck is the recognized expert then his terminology is what's accepted. I agree there is a huge difference between a defensive display and a gun fight but apparently DGU is the accepted term.
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Old December 19, 2020, 09:22 PM   #41
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How Do You Evaluate What's Necessary For EDC

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Originally Posted by Moonglum View Post
I'm almost positive I'm going to say this wrong but if Kleck is the recognized expert then his terminology is what's accepted. I agree there is a huge difference between a defensive display and a gun fight but apparently DGU is the accepted term.

Accepted by whom?

To an extent I think there’s an exaggerated emphasis put on terminology when it comes to firearms and the use of firearms. If a term gets a point across then I’m all for it. But here we have a term that apparently covers just drawing a firearm to dissuade an attack as well as actually shooting another person. That’s a bit nuts to me. Why not just say what you mean directly than leave that kind of ambiguity?

At a certain point I think the terminology becomes more about showing you’re “in the know” then what is actually gained by the terminology. And I say this as someone that’s done 29 training courses over a span of years and many instructors. Absent safety practices I’ve encountered instructors with varying philosophies and term usage. These were all people that had spent multiple decades of their lives in a combination of the military as well as law enforcement. Consensus hasn’t been overly common, in my experience.


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Old December 19, 2020, 10:36 PM   #42
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Kleck was specifically trying to quantify how many times guns are USED in self-defense. H realized that most of the time when someone uses a gun in self-defense, the gun isn't even fired.

The anti-gunners had been trying to make the point that self-defense with guns was almost non-existent because they were only counting the times when someone was actually killed and it was ruled justifiable homicide. They were then using that statistic and arguing that if guns were only very rarely used for self-defense, that was one more strike against them.

Kleck's point was that trying to keep track of how often guns were useful for defense by only tracking dead attackers was massively under-reporting the actual usefulness of guns as defensive tools. It would be sort of like judging the effectiveness of law enforcement using ONLY the number of people legally killed by police and legally executed each year as if that is the only reasonable measure.

His study tracked all uses. Uses that involved the death of the attacker, those that involved only an injury to the attacker, those where the gun was fired and the attacker wasn't hit, those where the gun wasn't fired, and even those where the gun wasn't even actually displayed. The term he used to encompass all of those uses was 'Defensive Gun Uses' or DGU.

It was, in fact, specifically intended to encompass ALL possible uses of a gun for self-defense not just dead attackers, or even just shootings.

Was he wrong? Well, as far as I know, he coined the term so it's a little tricky to say that his definition isn't correct.
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Old December 19, 2020, 10:44 PM   #43
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How Do You Evaluate What's Necessary For EDC

I don’t believe I said he was wrong. My argument is it’s a term that seems to me overly broad. I understand his reasoning for it being that way in terms of calculating population statistics, but in the context of myself saying that I’ve had X number of defensive gun uses, there’s a dramatic difference between me displaying a firearm and me shooting a person, both in terms of the potential legal repercussions and the general perception.


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Old December 19, 2020, 11:08 PM   #44
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If it seems broad, it's probably because that was Kleck's explicit intent.
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Old December 19, 2020, 11:10 PM   #45
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How Do You Evaluate What's Necessary For EDC

And as I said, that makes sense in certain contexts. In terms of a person describing his or her personal defensive use of a firearm, it does not make sense, imo. Not when a person can be explicit in how he or she used that firearm.


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Old December 20, 2020, 12:02 AM   #46
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In terms of a person describing his or her personal defensive use of a firearm, it does not make sense, imo. Not when a person can be explicit in how he or she used that firearm.


It sounds like what you're saying is that it doesn't make sense to use the term in contexts in which it doesn't make sense to use the term. I definitely agree with that. Not because there's a problem with the term, but because that is a statement that could be applied accurately to any term.

What I don't understand is the implication that there's something wrong with it because it's broad and all-encompassing, not specific or descriptive. It is, by intent of the person who came up with it, not descriptive. It is expressly intended to be broad and all-encompassing and expressly intended to be non-specific and general as to the type of gun use.

It's kind of like saying: "I object to the term 'mathematics' because it's overly broad. It applies to arithmetic, to algebra, calculus, even to disciplines that don't involve the use of numbers at all. People should be specific instead of talking about 'mathematics'." General terms exist for a reason, just as there are reasons for more specific, descriptive terms to exist and be used.
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in the context of myself saying that I’ve had X number of defensive gun uses, there’s a dramatic difference between me displaying a firearm and me shooting a person, both in terms of the potential legal repercussions and the general perception.
Yes, there are dramatic differences. The term DGU isn't intended to downplay those differences, it's intended to be a convenient collective term that encompasses all different kinds of gun uses (referring to the gun without even showing it, displaying one, drawing one, pointing one, shooting one, injuring someone with one, killing someone with one) that highlights the fact that guns are useful for self-defense in many different ways--specifically in many ways other than just killing an attacker.

Is it a useful term? Well, if a person wants to comment on all the times they have used guns defensively without being specific or descriptive about the incidents, I can't think of a better term than DGU. But they don't have to use it--a person can certainly be specific or descriptive if they choose to be.
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Old December 20, 2020, 12:03 AM   #47
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And as I said, that makes sense in certain contexts. In terms of a person describing his or her personal defensive use of a firearm, it does not make sense, imo. Not when a person can be explicit in how he or she used that firearm.


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I was very explicit. I said I've had a couple of defensive gun uses but I've never had to shoot anybody or even shoot at anybody. How much clearer do you want it?

Is there a specific reason you're trying to pull this thread off topic?
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Old December 20, 2020, 12:04 AM   #48
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How Do You Evaluate What's Necessary For EDC

I’m responding to its use in the context in which it was used. I feel like that’s fairly obvious.

I do not dislike all broad terms in general and yes they have their roles. I did not mean to convey a disdain for broad terms in general, merely to point out their potential limitations when used in regular conversation with others that may not be familiar with that term (notwithstanding that the originator of that term may well have both understood and specifically intended for those limitations).

I agree firearms can be employed in a number of ways, including not being discharged.

The point about discretion through use of a term is a good one.


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Old December 20, 2020, 12:09 AM   #49
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I was very explicit. I said I've had a couple of defensive gun uses but I've never had to shoot anybody or even shoot at anybody. How much clearer do you want it?

Is there a specific reason you're trying to pull this thread off topic?
I was having what I thought was simply going to be a short discussion with John and it continued. Sometimes discussions evolve and additional discussions appear. I can certainly stop discussing with John. I will say there aren’t a finite amount of words allowed to be posted in a thread and no one else was commenting so I’m not sure I’m causing harm. Regardless, I’ll respect your wishes.


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Old December 20, 2020, 08:24 AM   #50
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I think this is an interesting conversation and not off-topic of the OP at all. I lean toward JohnKSa's interpretation of Kleck's definition off a DGU.

If the intent is to stop a threat and displaying a firearm does indeed stop the threat, then the intended result happened, whether there was actual gunfire or bloodshed or not.

Isn't "stopping the threat" the point?

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

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