The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 7, 2021, 10:53 PM   #1
Txgunman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2021
Posts: 4
Quick question

Have an NFA AR-15 I got in 2002, box 4b TYPE OF FIREARM lists it as " A.O.W. Pistol unit with collapsible stock" barrel length is 7.5". Question is, can I drop a 10.5 upper and new stock on this as long as I keep the original upper and stock?

Thanks
Txgunman is offline  
Old September 8, 2021, 07:56 PM   #2
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,775
I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around the idea of an AR pistol, with a shoulder stock and 7.5" bbl ever being an NFA "AOW".
Quote:
Any other weapon.
Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

1. If it has a shoulder stock it does not meet the definition of an Any Other Weapon.
2. If the firearm was originally an AR rifle, shortening the barrel makes it an SBR, not an AOW.
3. If the firearm was originally an AR pistol, adding a shoulder stock makes it an SBR, not an AOW.
4. If it was some how originally an AOW, adding the shoulder stock made the AOW an SBR and would require a Form 1 and $200 tax before assembly.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old September 8, 2021, 09:01 PM   #3
Txgunman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2021
Posts: 4
honestly, haven't looked at the paperwork since 2010 at least when I was getting divorced. (Judge wanted to see it when splitting assets). But that is what the paperwork says and it has a multiple position carbine collapsible stock on it. Bought it from a place called Shooter's Depot in Corpus Christi, TX. Don't think they are in business anymore. It's got all the stamps and signatures on it.
Txgunman is offline  
Old September 10, 2021, 11:17 PM   #4
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,165
What does the Form 1 or Form 4 list it as? If it is an AOW, REMOVE the stock--otherwise you have an unregistered SBR. If it is a registered SBR, you are good.
raimius is offline  
Old September 11, 2021, 03:41 AM   #5
STORM2
Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2021
Location: Texas
Posts: 63
….and does the appropriate form have your name on it. The wording seemed to skip over the form filling/waiting/approval process and leave questions about the gun.
STORM2 is offline  
Old September 13, 2021, 06:19 PM   #6
Txgunman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2021
Posts: 4
the form 4 has in the box "A.O.W Pistol unit with collapsible stock". yes, my name is in the Transferee's name and address box. "approved" is checked in the ATF section and it has 2 different signatures on the last line. My pic is on back with the signature of the Nueces Cty Sheriff at the time. There is a 2 letter and 5 number black stamp at top of form. example PS00000 format. This weapon was made in 2002.
Txgunman is offline  
Old September 13, 2021, 09:44 PM   #7
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,165
I'm not a lawyer, but that makes it sound like you have an approved, registered firearm. I'm not 100% confident it's accurate, but you at least have the ATF's own document to argue with, if anyone gives you flak. I would not alter it to any different configuration, since the wording is so...odd...
raimius is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 04:35 AM   #8
STORM2
Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2021
Location: Texas
Posts: 63
After rereading, it appears the OP wants to change the dimensions of the stamped NFA gun. I thought the serial # had to match the paperwork. If this is true then a new NFA gun would be created. Does having a stamp mean you could keep making additional guns? It sounds too easy to be true. I suggest the OP ask BATF in writing. The rules were created before we had erector style upper/lower guns. Can we have one stamped S/N lower and a dozen different barrel combos? Elvis: … “it all just seems like a great big fairytale”.
STORM2 is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 09:27 AM   #9
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,775
Quote:
Txgunman the form 4 has in the box "A.O.W Pistol unit with collapsible stock". yes, my name is in the Transferee's name and address box. "approved" is checked in the ATF section and it has 2 different signatures on the last line. My pic is on back with the signature of the Nueces Cty Sheriff at the time. There is a 2 letter and 5 number black stamp at top of form. example PS00000 format. This weapon was made in 2002.
What is the denomination on that Form 4 tax stamp?

As previously mentioned, an AOW cannot have a shoulder stock. And no federal law or ATF regulation has ever defined an AOW as "A.O.W pistol unit with shoulder stock".....in fact that phrase is chock full of Thats because an AOW cannot be a pistol and cannot have a shoulder stock.

My concern is that ATF approved the transfer of an AOW that doesn't meet the definition of AOW.......meaning you aren't in lawful possession of an actual AOW, but an SBR.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

Last edited by dogtown tom; September 14, 2021 at 09:35 AM.
dogtown tom is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 09:34 AM   #10
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,775
Quote:
raimius I'm not a lawyer, but that makes it sound like you have an approved, registered firearm. I'm not 100% confident it's accurate, but you at least have the ATF's own document to argue with, if anyone gives you flak. I would not alter it to any different configuration, since the wording is so...odd...
Firearms made and registered on a Form 1 rely on the maker to accurately describe what NFA firearm they are making. If you file a Form 1 as an AOW, but that firearm is in fact not an AOW as defined in federal law, you have a problem. If what you built is actually an SBR and you possess a a Form 1 for an AOW........thats a serious problem.

If that firearm is later transferred via a Form 4, ATF will approve the Form based on what the original Form 1 stated. Thats because ATF doesn't see the actual firearm, relying on the original maker to know what the heck they are doing.

If I were the OP there is no way in heck I would keep that firearm in its current configuration.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 09:43 AM   #11
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,775
Quote:
STORM2 After rereading, it appears the OP wants to change the dimensions of the stamped NFA gun.
Correct. And for an MG/SBR/SBS perfectly legal.



Quote:
I thought the serial # had to match the paperwork.
Nothing he wrote indicates that is not the case.



Quote:
If this is true then a new NFA gun would be created.
Huh?


Quote:
Does having a stamp mean you could keep making additional guns?
Oh heck no!
A "stamp" means you paid the federal tax to transfer (Form 4) or make (Form 1) an NFA firearm. The tax cover ONE NFA FIREARM made or one transfer.




Quote:
It sounds too easy to be true. I suggest the OP ask BATF in writing. The rules were created before we had erector style upper/lower guns.
True, the rules were created in 1934, so any firearm built since then has to abide by the NFA.




Quote:
Can we have one stamped S/N lower and a dozen different barrel combos?
Of course you can.





Quote:
Elvis: … “it all just seems like a great big fairytale”.
Elvis didn't know squat about the NFA.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 11:20 PM   #12
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,165
Quote:
Firearms made and registered on a Form 1 rely on the maker to accurately describe what NFA firearm they are making. If you file a Form 1 as an AOW, but that firearm is in fact not an AOW as defined in federal law, you have a problem. If what you built is actually an SBR and you possess a a Form 1 for an AOW........thats a serious problem.

If that firearm is later transferred via a Form 4, ATF will approve the Form based on what the original Form 1 stated. Thats because ATF doesn't see the actual firearm, relying on the original maker to know what the heck they are doing.

If I were the OP there is no way in heck I would keep that firearm in its current configuration.
Good points.
My comment had more to do with the argument of "well, you approved it!" If it ever becomes an ATF issue. With a good lawyer, you might still lose the gun, but probably wouldn't get stuck with criminal liability, since the enforcement agency signed off on the thing they would be prosecuting.
...that said, the ATF is less predictable than a rabid coyote...
raimius is offline  
Old September 14, 2021, 11:57 PM   #13
Txgunman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2021
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Firearms made and registered on a Form 1 rely on the maker to accurately describe what NFA firearm they are making. If you file a Form 1 as an AOW, but that firearm is in fact not an AOW as defined in federal law, you have a problem. If what you built is actually an SBR and you possess a a Form 1 for an AOW........thats a serious problem.

If that firearm is later transferred via a Form 4, ATF will approve the Form based on what the original Form 1 stated. Thats because ATF doesn't see the actual firearm, relying on the original maker to know what the heck they are doing.

If I were the OP there is no way in heck I would keep that firearm in its current configuration.
ok, so what do I do? Do I take the form down to my local BATF office and say "hey can you look at this for me? Is this legit?" Should I disassemble the whole weapon down to the stripped receiver til I find out? or can I just take the collapsible stock off and replace it with a pistol brace til I can find out? Really stuck here, went through the whole process when I got this. Can't remember exactly how long I waited but wanna say it was a couple of months before I got to pick it up. Also, just changed addresses within my state. Should I send the change of address before I go talk to them?

Last edited by Txgunman; September 15, 2021 at 12:02 AM.
Txgunman is offline  
Old September 15, 2021, 09:54 PM   #14
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,775
Quote:
Txgunman

ok, so what do I do?
First, please answer my question from above...."What is the denomination on that Form 4 tax stamp?"
I ask because that will affect my answer.




Quote:
Do I take the form down to my local BATF office and say "hey can you look at this for me? Is this legit?"
Never.
Do that and you risk immediate confiscation of the firearm if it is configured in a manner different than how it is registered.




Quote:
Should I disassemble the whole weapon down to the stripped receiver til I find out? or can I just take the collapsible stock off and replace it with a pistol brace til I can find out?
Remove the shoulder stock for sure.
As its not a pistol, replacing the stock with a pistol brace may not have the result you think it will.



Quote:
Really stuck here, went through the whole process when I got this. Can't remember exactly how long I waited but wanna say it was a couple of months before I got to pick it up.
You aren't stuck, you just have a firearm that currently doesn't seem to meet the definition of AOW.



Quote:
Also, just changed addresses within my state. Should I send the change of address before I go talk to them?
You can, I'm not sure what difference it will make.

I recommend that you not speak with any local ATF office, but with the NFA Branch directly.
The questions I would ask first:
"What the heck is an "A.O.W Pistol unit with collapsible stock" and why would ATF approve a Form 1 for the original maker with that description?"

The reason is "A.O.W Pistol unit with collapsible stock" does not meet any definition of an NFA firearm.

See your private messages.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10021 seconds with 10 queries