Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry

[Hawgleg44]

Arizona- I agree. Like I said in my post, "most areas".

As I also said before, I wish carrying open was not as socially unacceptable in most areas like it is. If everyone, or most people, were carrying openly, we'd see a dramatic reduction in crime. Unfortunately, as this country becomes more "civilized" (if you want to call it that), the chances of people openly carrying gets smaller every day.

I'm not saying that we should hide our support for gun rights, in fact, just the opposite of that. But, we have to do it in ways that will promote our cause. If you live in an area where open carry is widely accepted, great. If you don't, you are hurting more than helping.

12-34hom- I definately feel more welcome here than I thought I would after my first post in this thread!

[Handy]

If more people were carrying openly we'd see alot more personal guns being turned on civilians.

Regular holsters are fine if no one knows you're carrying, or at least how you're carrying. But uniform police use retention holsters for a reason. If you want to open carry you best be ready to wear the same. If not you are just a public liability.

[FrankDrebin]

If everyone, or most people, were carrying openly, we'd see a dramatic reduction in crime.

I doubt it. A guy who does armed robberies now because he's unemployable and needs to feed his crack habit isn't going to quit and get a job because he's afraid you have the ability to shoot him. He'll either turn to larceny instead of robbery, or just shoot you.

[mvpel]

If more people were carrying openly we'd see alot more personal guns being turned on civilians.

The vast majority of criminals don't have balls that brassy, I suspect. I was carrying openly in Arizona (since I didn't have an AZ-recognized CCW at the time) while visiting the state, and was walking over to a convenience store in the late evening. A young man was making a beeline for me coming across the street, and I got a bit unnerved and made an unconscious check of my holstered firearm. This apparently drew his attention to my Glock, and he made a sharp turn and went the other direction.

If I'd been concealed, he might have walked up to me, asked me what time it was, then sucker-punched me, forcing me to draw and possibly shoot.

[Hawgleg44]

Regular holsters are fine if no one knows you're carrying, or at least how you're carrying. But uniform police use retention holsters for a reason. If you want to open carry you best be ready to wear the same. If not you are just a public liability.

Agreed. Anyone who went to a police academy knows about the "fun house". Try walking through there. Even triple retention holsters are still vulnerable when somebody REALLY wants your gun. A great point to bring up is that Safariland is now making a holster modelled after their triple retention 070 for concealed carry in both a belt slide and paddle type. Although I prefer the twist-in to release type, it's not practical if it's a concealable holster since it's already too close to your body.

Again, it just comes down to responsibility.

[Rich Lucibella]

If more people were carrying openly we'd see alot more personal guns being turned on civilians.

Yup...and when Texas enacted CCW, it turned into the Wild West just as predicted. Where have I heard these arguments before? Am I to understand that the police officers shot with their own weapons were not using "retention devices"; or, conversely, those who have never had their weapon snatched have their "retention devices" to thank for it.

Lets look at this the way we'd ask an anti to look at firearms ownership: from experience. Dig me up 3 articles within the past 10 years about open carry snatches in places like AZ and I'll concede your point. Short of that, I'm afraid I have to drop that argument into the "plays into the hands of antis hysteria" folder.
Rich

ps: Don't forget the women. They shouldn't carry guns at all. They'll just be used against them.

[Fred Hansen]

If more people were carrying openly we'd see alot more personal guns being turned on civilians.

Evidence please.

[Handy]

Rich,

It was my understanding that the majority of guns turned on cops are weapons they lost after they were drawn from holsters. A retention holster can only help if the gun is still in it at the time.

I'm sorry if you think I'm anti-gun because I think a cowboy quick-draw holster and a crowded shopping mall might be a poor combination for safe carry. But certainly some people will strap on their SASS and tactical leg holsters and publically demonstate their 2nd Amendment fashions.

I was not making a prediction of statistical outcome - I was pointing out that, should someone become the target of criminals, there is a marked increase in the probability of a grab if that civilian, untrained in retention techniques, is openly carrying a gun that is easy to take from them. The author of this thread seems to feel the same, if I understood him correctly. That doesn't mean I'm favoring one set of laws over another - I would prefer legal concealed carry for all citizens so they don't have carry openly and frighten Grandma.

It is much harder to have something taken from you if no one knows it is there. I don't walk around with my cash out in the open, either.

[Redondo]

Most criminals seek the weak. Open carry, in my opinion, is more likely to dissuade than invite an attack.

[Hawgleg44]

Most criminals seek the weak. Open carry, in my opinion, is more likely to dissuade than invite an attack.

Sure, unless they already have their mind set on armed robbery or another violent crime. Then, anyone carrying openly will be the first target, since they are the immediate threat. Remember, they will have the advantage if you are just out doing your regular business, aware of your surroundings but not 100% on guard, and they are focused on one thing only- robbing and getting away with it.

I'll bet the criminal won't be openly carrying so he's not perceived as an immediate threat.

Hey, if it's legal and you want to do it, go ahead. I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do for the reason mentioned above, even if it is widely accepted in your area.

As for snatches from LE's, most are after the pistol has been drawn. I'll dig out my FBI stats book on officers shot in the line of duty and see exactly what it says in there. But, many officers still don't use retention holsters. I know on our town dept, many officers still carry single retention. Some are around 5ft tall, 120 lbs soaking wet, and talk big saying "nobody will ever take my gun away from me". Well, I'd like to know how many officers that were shot with their own weapon went around saying "Yup, anyone could just walk right up behind me and snatch my duty gun!"

If you carry a gun, concealed or not, you do have a higher responsibility than other people out there. You have the responsibility to know how and when to use it properly, when not to use it, when to let someone know you are carrying, when not to, and how to hold on to your weapon at all times. Open carry makes that much more difficult, but not impossible.

[Rich Lucibella]

Handy-
By No Means am I of the impression that you are anti-gun. I know which side of the barricade you're on. And I know you're one of the good guys. I was simply pointing out that your argument is somewhat barren of appropriate logic.

Similarly pointing out that most cops, shot with their own weapons, had drawn the weapon first may be a valid observation. But the logic produces an absurd result. It argues that, because there are relatively few cases of officer hostered-weapons-snatches, it's due to the retention device. There's no cause and effect demonstrated here; just an assumption. Secondly, it suggests that one might be safer without a weapon in hand at all.

You then bring up the extreme of SASS rigs. C'mon, Handy. Either you believe in personal responsibilty or you don't. I do. Simply because "stupid" exists in the real world is no reason to chuck the reliance on personal responsibility. I personally like "stupid"....stupid people are great cannon fodder for those of us who are not "stupid". They give us time to make the door.

Do you wear a folder in your waistband or pocket? Dangerous weapon, that. Easy snatch for the determined criminal. Have you considered a blade-lock, "just in case"?
Rich

[outrigger]

I second.....All in favor say "aye"

[Kahrgo9]

If you live in an area where open carry is widely accepted, great. If you don't, you are hurting more than helping.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. How does open carry (where legal) become widely accepted in an area, if no one carries openly for fear of "spooking the horses?"

That said, very rarely have I carried openly, even though I can legally carry that way. I don't "show off" or purposely let my sidearm be seen. But if my handgun printed or the holster inadvertantly became visible, I would still be legal. If some stupid lady called the police, I hope the LEO's in my area would be smarter than the ones who mugged mvpel.

I've been following this thread with great interest. Thanks, mvpel, for keeping us up to date on this. I really hope your efforts result in better treatment by the police for the next guy in your situation.

[Handy]

Rich,

I cite cowboy rigs because I think that is likely to happen; some people are going to invest themselves in making a statement. But I also volunteered it as a more extreme example of just how vulnerable open carry COULD be.

Realistically, I think that sports like IDPA are most likely to encourage people to use their prefered carry holster - which more often than not is an open top holster worn behind the hip. And probably the most common holster are those cheap one-size Uncle Mike's with a side snap. I wouldn't feel too good about getting in a packed McDonald's line with either setup. In that situation, the "responsible person" would go through the drive through. So what did they get from such open carry?

Since open carry is so rare these days, there aren't any statistics, either way. The only real experience we have with individuals mixing in society armed are the cops. And for whatever reason, cops seem to feel like their guns should either be concealed or in retension holsters - even if it slows their draw. That could be more administrative BS, or a sound tactic arrived at through much logical analysis.


As far as your knife example - NO, I don't advertise any weapons I carry. My shirt tail covers my front pockets, where both money, ID and knife might be kept. Few fashion faux-pas are worse than the current "Bat Utility Belt" look: Pager, cell phone, "tactical" folding(?) knife and 'inconspicuous' black fanny pack. :barf:

[Rich Lucibella]

Handy-
OK. Then, based on your example, I'm definitely leaving my exposed Sebenza at home from now on. I'm downright frightened.

Look, guy: It's summer in FL, CT, TX or 30 other states. I'll give you a crowd of 30, with two carrying concealed. Then I'll give you 3 minutes to identify a gun in a "non-retention" holster in that crowd. Guaranteed, you're sure to hit.

Let's not over-assume the stupidity of the "I'm looking for a gun to rip off the hip of someone so I can do a 'safe' armed robbery" crowd. Those exposed shirt tails and "concealment" photographer vests, in 90 degree temps, are hardly the shield of safety you suggest here. They're a promising sign, proved out as a dead give-away on 30 seconds observation. Think you don't "print"? Think again. In fact, we only wear those absurd vests and fannie packs to be legal or to shield ourselves from the histrionics of very "stupid people".

I go back to what I originally stated: "Degrees of Freedom".
You've countered with "Degrees of Safety".....that's where your argument falters. Protecting people from themselves is the first (and only) step toward servitude.

I cite the issue as an openly armed society. You cite it as not getting shot with your own piece. Based on your criteria:
Retention vs Non-Retention Holster? "Safer", yes. Degrees of Safety.
Carry only pocket guns in summer? Even "safer".
Trigger Locks? Moving further in the same direction.
No Carry vs Carry? Now we're cookin' with VPC gas! Sarah would applaud us.
Stay at home and don't go out? Safer still.
Check into Solitary Confinement? Whoa, dude. it just don't get much "safer" than that.

Are you arguing that if you are carrying open, "The gun is more likely to be used against you"? Choose your poison in this match, Handy. Cuz I'll take your argument to the logical conclusion of, "If we could just save one child" or "We need to have reasonable restrictions on [fill in the blanks here]".

In short, the argument, while praiseworthy in the intent, is devoid of substance.
Rich

[Handy]

Taking something to its "logical conclusion" isn't always logical. There is always a reasonable middle ground, but I'm saying that we don't have an established middle ground on this issue. The problem I'm preaching to is this:

Open carry, having no guidelines or instruction necessary, puts a considerable onus on those who choose it to do alot of thinking and analysis to execute it in an appropriately safe manner. I don't pretend to know what that is exactly, but I'm willing to bet that it varies considerably by the build of the person and size of the weapon. To that, we have no guidance or in either the publications that discuss carry or from the people that build holsters. The entire industry is tailored around CONCEALED carry, which I believe has a different set of needs than open carry. In other words, we have zero infrastructure to support this "new" type of carry; namely, urban open carry.

Not having ever considered the issues, will the average open carry user make "good" choices? Will they consider the shift in emphasis from maximizing concealment to maximizing retention? Of their choice of holsters, how will they select? Is an FBI Pancake, designed for a man in a suit, still appropriate?

Until someone wants to committ some time to this technique, we have none. And because we have no guidance, I'm predicting that well meaning people will make poor choices because they didn't know what questions to ask. This is going to blow up in our faces if open carry catches on and there are many "incidents".

I have some thoughts on technique, which I'll post in handguns. Please join in, perhaps your posts will have more substance than mine.


And Rich, I'm not scared of someone taking my pocket knife. I just think it looks a bit silly and don't want to take part in the Urban Survival equipment race.

[Rich Lucibella]

Handy-
It's real simple:
You are worried about how someone else might misuse guaranteed rights to their own detriment.
I am not.

I can't make the point any more plain than that.
Rich

[Handy]

I'm actually the kind of person that worries about the people who are neither carrying or criminals, but also standing in line at McDonalds.

It is a free country - let's keep it that way by being smart, responsible and looking out for each other. That includes getting the word out about HOW to be responsible, when it really ain't obvious.

[Rich Lucibella]

OK-
Truth be known, I'm not worried about them McDonalds diners at all....until such time as I choose to take them under my limited ability to protect.

My obligation is to my loved ones, myself, MY COUNTRY and my fellow citizens, in that order...(each of whom thinks it should be otherwise, is plain "stupid" per my earlier comments). I do not include you in that "stupid" group.

I proudly carry open in Open Carry states.
Am I "irresponsible"? Do I threaten the McDonalds diners? Shjall I pass out "Kinder/Gentler" RKBA literature or expect them to READ THE CONSTITUTION?
Rich

[Handy]

I don't know. HOW do you open carry?


Also, I'm not sure if we are understanding each other. I'm not talking about legislation, I have no interest in more laws.

And I'm getting the impression from you think that the technique someone employs in the in commission of a civil right is not to be questioned. Which surprises me. You wouldn't correct an unsafe practice at the firing range, even if you were leaving?

[paratrooper]

Let me ask a question . Could this have happened to an FBI agent ? The cop would then have assaulted a Federal Agent . I would think that if many officers approach a car with hand on gun with NO knowledge if anyone is a threat they could do the same with this scenario . Ask the person to show that they are legal while moving S-L-O-W-L-Y . They could do this in a normal voice so as not to start a problem .

[Rich Lucibella]

"Unsafe" is a matter of degrees.....it's determined by personal opinion. "Unsafe" is the stuff on which e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e abridgement of Constitutional Rights is based. Yet the Constitution never once speaks of Personal Safety. Know why? It was about personal Freedom for the individual, not societal Safety for those in the Big Mac Heart Attack line.....it was assumed those diners could think/fend for themselves.

If I see someone acting unsafe around me or mine, it stops now. If I see someone acting unsafe at their own risk, I may or may not intervene....gently. I certainly won't set down do's and don't's for them. I'm a student of human beavior, not a teacher.

How do I carry open? Leather holster, kydex holster, IWB, Over the Belt, Mexican.......What on earth does it matter. It's my gun; my life. I'm content with that, thanks.
Rich

[mvpel]

And I'm getting the impression from you think that the technique someone employs in the in commission of a civil right is not to be questioned. Which surprises me. You wouldn't correct an unsafe practice at the firing range, even if you were leaving?

Maybe that's a role that local and regional gun clubs and organizations could take on - putting out a pamphlet about techniques for open carry, sort of like the NRA's gun transportation guide.

After all, in New Hampshire and many other states, open carry is the only civil right, concealed carry is against the law unless you have a permission slip from the government in all states but two.

[Arizona Fusilier]

Strangely enough, when I do open carry, I do have a retention strap or full flap holster. It's only when I CCW that I do not.

For me, the choice between open and concealed is more of convenience rather than politics or tactical advantage. Now that CCW is legal in Arizona (for the past 10 years or so?), I find it just plain easier to put something in my pocket, rather than taking a holster on and off (or empty holster) as one goes through the hodge-podge of legal vs. no-carry "zones" or buildings that one has to navigate in today's society, even in Arizona. Leaving it in a secured storage in the car or truck, as opposed to laying it on the front seat every time you get back in, is a lot more convenient too.

Hawglegg, please trust me; we aint picking on ya! But I MUST take exception to this statement:

Sure, unless they already have their mind set on armed robbery or another violent crime. Then, anyone carrying openly will be the first target, since they are the immediate threat.

Of course they have their mind set on robbery; why not wait 5 minutes and let the guy with the gun go away! Your actually saying they would go after an armed man, in preference to the little old lady who's not carrying!

Heck, by that rationale, why not wait for the cops to show up and deal with them first! How long are the bad guys gonna stay in business by deliberately targeting the people most capable of resisting them?

Do you have any references in your LEO training? Is this what they are teaching at the academy? Any data to back this notion up?

I'm sorry, this is just flying in the face of a lot what I suspect most folks on this forum believe to be true. Heck, why should any of us have a gun at all!

[Hawgleg44]

You then bring up the extreme of SASS rigs. C'mon, Handy. Either you believe in personal responsibilty or you don't. I do. Simply because "stupid" exists in the real world is no reason to chuck the reliance on personal responsibility. I personally like "stupid"....stupid people are great cannon fodder for those of us who are not "stupid". They give us time to make the door.[/I]

I think that personal responsibility is what this whole thread is about. Yes, there are "stupid" people out there that would wear their SASS rigs to make a "statement" if you want to call it that. What this can boil right down to is basically a handgun in a SASS rig on your hip is probably more easily retained than an SOB open top holster like was used originally in this post. All of us, on both sides of this, agree that "personal responsibility" is the main issue here.

Stating that liking stupid people so you can make it to the door really helps the pro-gun stance here. Let's all say that it's great to have a bunch of people around to use as shields so you can make it to the door. Go ahead and say what you want, I won't even respond anymore to statements like this.

Arizona Fusilier [I]- The police academy didn't teach anything about off-duty concealed carry. In fact, it was actually stated that off duty, most of the instructors didn't carry and would rather be a good witness than stop a crime. I just didn't agree with that statement and was surprised that it was even said. Most of the non-live fire training was concerned with weapons retention in a struggle. If you read articles by Massad Ayoob, and others that I cannot remember their names, a few have been written concerning this subject. I remember one specifically in Combat Handguns that said basically the same thing I did.

As for a criminal not engaging an armed citizen, just because he has a gun, think about this. Why wouldn't he? Grab a few training guns, or whatever you want to use, and see how fast you can draw if someone already has a gun on you. You will lose. How about the original person in this post who was completely oblivious to his surroundings even when two uniformed officers walked up behind him? You mean to tell me that, paying that much attention to his surroundings, he would have effectively stopped an armed criminal from shooting him? Not a chance.

As for a criminal just sitting around and waiting for an openly armed person to leave, no way. The longer a criminal stands around at a doorway, wanders around a store, walks in and out, the more people will see him, and would definately cause security (if it exists in the store) to take notice. Everyone knows that the key to pulling off a successful robbery is to get in and out quick. The more time you waste, the greater chance of being caught.

And, I don't take this as picking on me at all. This is a good debate on this issue, and as long as every statement here causes people to think about what they do, every word is worth it. I know I keep saying it over and over again, but please be responsible however you decide to carry. Any incident that causes problems for you causes problems for all legal gun owners out there. If you do carry open, you better be at a very high level of awareness of your surroundings. You can't think that just because people see you have a gun, they will leave you alone.