My take on why gun-restriction works in Europe but not in the US - Page 5

maestro pistolero · August 24, 2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

I wholeheartedly agree with someone's right to protect themselves, I wouldn't be a police officer if I didn't think so. I just feel that in the UK and Greece hand-guns are not a necessity to do it.

That could only be true if every citizen was of equal stature, strength, and skill. Except for firearms, there is no means, let alone common means that so completely equalizes the disparity of force between young, healthy attackers and the elderly, handicapped, slight of stature, etc.

OP, you either haven't thought this through, or you are only capable of seeing the issue through the thick lens of your culture, in my opinion.

manta49 · August 24, 2011, 03:01 PM

I Have my suspicions about some of BBs posts some of them don't add up.
Some seam anti gun to me i didn't like to come out and say he was a troll so we will see if he comes back on to defend him self.

He said that the metropolitan police have firearms training, him being a police officer should know that police in the MET don't have firearms training unless they are in armed response.

Eghad · August 24, 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

The USA was basically a bunch of RAG TAG farmers with guns in their hands and burlap sacks on their feet when we sent the redcoats home for more tea!

It wasn't our ability to form a line of armed gents for the "volley" of lead balls that lead to victory...

It was our hunting ability that put our men in the trees, fence rows and between buildings waging guerrilla warfare against the most powerful army on earth that beat england from our shores...

There was also the assistance the French gave us in the form of aid and also the French Naval Fleet.

in 1776 and 1777 the aid from the French through neutral ports helped sustain the revolution. Britain declared war on France in 1778 which helped to take some of the heat off the colonies. Britain also declare war on Spain and the Dutch in later years over support for the Americans. French Soldiers were landed at Newport and were put under Washington's command at White plains. The French also landed troops at Chesapeake to aid Lafayette in the blockade. The French defeated the British fleet during the Battle of the Chesapeake. Then the French landed a siege force at Yorktown to complete things.

The French also kept the British busy around the world during that period. Which kept the British from flexing its full military might upon us.

Yes we won some battles and lost some battles without the assistance of others it might have been game over for the colonies.

BGutzman · August 24, 2011, 09:24 PM

For me I guess the questions reversed..... Why would the people of the UK allow what appears for all purposes to be some level of serfdom and allow themselves to be in the position of having little real power to do anything to the government should the government decide to step it up a few notches...

If they did the people of the UK would be in a very, very bad position... not that they appear to be all that far from it now....

Crankgrinder · August 24, 2011, 10:02 PM

first, i do not usualy post to this forum but i will now. whats good for us may not be good for them. guns is in our blood maybe not so much theirs. Anything that involves such a large segment of the population remains legal no matter what, and in great brittain i dont believe its a very large population at all owns or wants to own guns. Our constitutional law has been interpreted as being legal for individuals to posess guns for too long now to change it. Theres no such thing as saying its legal to own guns for 200+ years and then saying "oh wait there may be a mistake guns are just for police and military". you do that and the economy will be the least of everyones worries.

hogdogs · August 25, 2011, 10:01 AM

Crank, What folks need to realize is that the gun came to america with those who settled here... Guns were a part of their euro lives thus brought here...

No more a part of life for us as them... they just opted to let the monarchy do to them that led to a massacre of civvies by redcoats... THEY CAME FOR THE GUNS FIRST!!!

That really wasn't well accepted as our founding populace saw the means to an end england was (literally) shootin' for...

Brent

shortwave · August 25, 2011, 10:25 AM

Agree hogdogs,

We don't just have guns today simply cause they've always been here.

The only reason we have guns today is the fact that we have demanded them and fought over the years for the right to keep them.

We don't have to go back many years at all in our own history to find bills that were/are drafted trying to cripple our gun rights.

IMO,make no mistake, if our pro-gun movement wasn't as strong as it is today, we wouldn't have our gun freedoms we have today. Also, its a continued fight that will never end. Don't believe that, just search some of the more recent anti-gun bills that have been drafted and voted down just this year.

Tennessee Gentleman · August 25, 2011, 10:33 AM

Hello British Bobby!

Good to see someone from Europe posting on here. I was stationed in Europe for over 5 years total with the US Army so I am familiar with the culture(s) there. Here are a few of my thoughts on this anyway.

1. I agree with other posters that crime (violent or otherwise) includes a multiplicity of reasons and causes. My logic is that if you can show places (or countries) with strict gun control who have high crime and then show other places where gun laws are not prevalent but whose citizens enjoy low crime rates then the idea of gun laws effecting crime cancel each other out and presuppose other reasons for crime or lack thereof. My belief based on what I have read and studied is that causality between guns and crime just isn't there. Others may disagree.

2. So, what that means to me is that what matters is whether one has the natural right to self defense. If one does have that right then I would disagree that handguns are not necessary to it since they are one of the best tools for personal defense.

3. I do not agree (and my opinion is known on TFL) with the "insurrection theory" that some on here espouse. I think our democratic institutions keep us free from governmental tyranny in the USA and not the AR in my closet. However, there are threads on that you can find here and read up on that.

4. Having lived in Europe there is a clear difference with cultures and diversity from the US and the fact that the USA is so large and so diverse makes a huge difference with crime and other social issues (health care, gun laws?). Having said that I notice with concern that the demographics of Europe are changing with a greater influx of others from different parts of the world. I wonder if the riots in London and some of the issues Sweden is facing now is not a harbinger of things to come and might change some ideas about citizen self defense in the future?

Anyway, good thread and thanks for visiting.

Tennessee Gentleman · August 25, 2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eghad

Yes we won some battles and lost some battles without the assistance of others it might have been game over for the colonies.

Good read of history Eghad. This "rural" legend of the rag tag farmer beating the entire British Army is laughable and ignorant of history. Without France and had the UK brought it's entire might against us we would not have prevailed as we did.

The same claptrap is brought up about Vietnam. Had the US brought it's full might against Hanoi AND had China and Russia stayed out then that conflict would have turned out quite differently.

pgdion · August 25, 2011, 10:44 AM

On a tangent, I don't know if it's part of the cause of so much gun ownership (I think it's partly the other way around, there is such a strong gun economy because of the ability and desire to own guns), but I do believe the economic engine around firearms is just as strong of a defender of gun rights as the constitution is. We are a capitalistic country and anything that has strong economic power is going to be hard to push aside. Like I always say on everything, vote with your dollars. If you like something, pay for it and support it, if you don't like something, don't do business there.

NJgunowner · August 25, 2011, 12:02 PM

Just cause it came up, 3 billion is drop in the bucket as far as GDP in the U.S. Warren Buffet just gave Bank of America $5 Billion

Country GDP (millions of US$)
— World 62,909,274[4]
— European Union 16,282,230[4]
1 United States 14,657,800
2 People's Republic of China 5,878,257[nb 2]
3 Japan 5,458,872
4 Germany 3,315,643
5 France 2,582,527
6 United Kingdom 2,247,455

markj · August 25, 2011, 04:19 PM

We have guns because our founding fathers saw a higher need for personal freedom. How could we have a free country if the govt imposed restrictions upon us from the start?

Freedom is and was more important. I dont see any other country with tehe same level of freedom as we enjoy here.

maestro pistolero · August 25, 2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Warren Buffet just gave Bank of America $5 Billion

No, he INVESTED $5 Billion. The share pice went up immediately, turning an instant profit.

ClayInTx · August 25, 2011, 07:00 PM

Some mentioned that British Bobby might be a troll. My curiosity caused me to check his posts.

He was here only ONE HALF of ONE DAY.

His first post was on the 19th August at 12:20 PM.
His last post was on the 19th August at 10:12 PM.
He posted 19 times.

He probably was arrested as a terrorist because America, after all, has 280,000,000 gun owners and is, therefore, a hotbed of revolutionaries. Well, we DID do that once and UK doesn’t want the likes of that debacle ever again.

Or,
He might have met the squire on the street and failed to genuflect and touch his forelock. How dastardly, if I do say so, myself! Wouldn’t have happened had he not been chatting with us cheeky Americans!

jimbob86 · August 25, 2011, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Perhaps it's because we believe that all people should have the God given right of self protection.

Englishmen believed this, once. It is where we got the idea.

HarrySchell · August 25, 2011, 08:21 PM

Whether Bobby was a troll or not, if he thinks he raised a case and won on the merits...ah, no.

I think we had a good discussion. Too bad Bobby has gone away. I can see why he isn't posting anymore.

NJgunowner · August 25, 2011, 10:32 PM

I can't see this site as something he'd spend tons of time checking. I mean he can't even own a gun in the first place

graysmoke · August 26, 2011, 10:30 AM

European countries have a mainly Socialistic rule concept of goverments. Those goverments keep a control and restrictions on certain things society can own, and have.
Obama and his theory idea of 'Change' is very similar, if not the same to this.

thallub · August 26, 2011, 10:44 AM

It seems that British Bobby saw little need to defend his position. He left at about post 40.

HarrySchell · August 26, 2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

It seems that British Bobby saw little need to defend his position. He left at about post 40.

Little need or little point? I suspect the latter. Bobby was "outgunned", so to speak.

Sort of like Paul Krugman and the blog he closed last year. The great Nobelist kept having his theories and ideas rammed into his left ear and other orifices based on the facts...by non-Nobelists, to boot. He finally closed the blog, if his fuliminations in op-ed columns haven't changed. Took his little soccer ball and hobby horse and went home, rather than admit losing on the facts.

Krugman and Bobby would get along.

BlueTrain · August 29, 2011, 12:06 PM

So European governments have a socialistic concept of government? Does that mean we have an anti-socialistic form of government? Regarding serfdom, that is not a state of life one willingly enters into. You are born a serf. You belong to the land. Later, some lord got the idea they could make more money with sheep on the land than with people, and the idea of serfdom became old-fashioned. People didn't matter any more and that was a long time ago. But it probably contributed to people coming to the new world. They did not necessarily come for more freedom. Go read about the Puritans.

British (not necessarily European) ideas about arms control really began with the English Civil Wars. We have the quaint idea that only modern wars are destructive. They also resisted the idea of fortifications around cities, thinking that because there were fortifications around cities on the continent, they had more wars.

Do we really have lots of gun factories, by the way? When I go to a gun shop, I see Sigs, Glocks, Walthers, CZs, H&K and other fine products not made here. Maybe the original poster is uninformed as to where guns are actually made.

hogdogs · August 29, 2011, 12:48 PM

I hope I didn't play a role in his short stay...

I don't wantcha to leave mad... Just leave...

Brent

shortwave · August 29, 2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Maybe the original poster was uninformed as to where guns are actually made

I'd say the OP is un-informed about alot of things...

...from the sound of a few of his own countrymen, in the UK as well as in the US.

Kind of ridiculous someone could form lame opinions of our gun rights based on absolute nonsense that he admittedly can't substantiate, then come here on TFL voice them and not stick around to learn some things about this side of the pond.

I found his opinion comical at first as to the reason our gun laws being the way they are cause of the revenue guns in this country generates. I thought he was just ignorant to the facts.

I then became offended cause it was apparent he has no clue as to the fight its been getting our 2nd Amend. rights to the point they are today. Furthermore he wasn't interested in learning.

As the thread went on, he had no response's, questions other then to express his feelings that a citizen does not have the right to defend their life.

Again,either a troll or a coward. Maybe both.

Al Norris · August 29, 2011, 08:12 PM

British Bobby hasn't been back to view this thread, since his last post, back on the 19th.

I'm calling "troll," and closing the thread.

August 24, 2011, 09:24 PM	#104
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	For me I guess the questions reversed..... Why would the people of the UK allow what appears for all purposes to be some level of serfdom and allow themselves to be in the position of having little real power to do anything to the government should the government decide to step it up a few notches... If they did the people of the UK would be in a very, very bad position... not that they appear to be all that far from it now.... __________________ Molon Labe

August 25, 2011, 10:33 AM	#108
Tennessee Gentleman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,775	Welcome to TFL Hello British Bobby! Good to see someone from Europe posting on here. I was stationed in Europe for over 5 years total with the US Army so I am familiar with the culture(s) there. Here are a few of my thoughts on this anyway. 1. I agree with other posters that crime (violent or otherwise) includes a multiplicity of reasons and causes. My logic is that if you can show places (or countries) with strict gun control who have high crime and then show other places where gun laws are not prevalent but whose citizens enjoy low crime rates then the idea of gun laws effecting crime cancel each other out and presuppose other reasons for crime or lack thereof. My belief based on what I have read and studied is that causality between guns and crime just isn't there. Others may disagree. 2. So, what that means to me is that what matters is whether one has the natural right to self defense. If one does have that right then I would disagree that handguns are not necessary to it since they are one of the best tools for personal defense. 3. I do not agree (and my opinion is known on TFL) with the "insurrection theory" that some on here espouse. I think our democratic institutions keep us free from governmental tyranny in the USA and not the AR in my closet. However, there are threads on that you can find here and read up on that. 4. Having lived in Europe there is a clear difference with cultures and diversity from the US and the fact that the USA is so large and so diverse makes a huge difference with crime and other social issues (health care, gun laws?). Having said that I notice with concern that the demographics of Europe are changing with a greater influx of others from different parts of the world. I wonder if the riots in London and some of the issues Sweden is facing now is not a harbinger of things to come and might change some ideas about citizen self defense in the future? Anyway, good thread and thanks for visiting. __________________ "God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier.

August 25, 2011, 10:44 AM	#110
pgdion Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2010 Location: MPLS, MN Posts: 1,214	On a tangent, I don't know if it's part of the cause of so much gun ownership (I think it's partly the other way around, there is such a strong gun economy because of the ability and desire to own guns), but I do believe the economic engine around firearms is just as strong of a defender of gun rights as the constitution is. We are a capitalistic country and anything that has strong economic power is going to be hard to push aside. Like I always say on everything, vote with your dollars. If you like something, pay for it and support it, if you don't like something, don't do business there. __________________ 597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!

August 25, 2011, 07:00 PM	#114
ClayInTx Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,066	Some mentioned that British Bobby might be a troll. My curiosity caused me to check his posts. He was here only ONE HALF of ONE DAY. His first post was on the 19th August at 12:20 PM. His last post was on the 19th August at 10:12 PM. He posted 19 times. He probably was arrested as a terrorist because America, after all, has 280,000,000 gun owners and is, therefore, a hotbed of revolutionaries. Well, we DID do that once and UK doesn’t want the likes of that debacle ever again. Or, He might have met the squire on the street and failed to genuflect and touch his forelock. How dastardly, if I do say so, myself! Wouldn’t have happened had he not been chatting with us cheeky Americans! __________________ . No people should have to fear the will of their government; all governments should have to fear the will of their people.

August 25, 2011, 08:21 PM	#116
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 566	Whether Bobby was a troll or not, if he thinks he raised a case and won on the merits...ah, no. I think we had a good discussion. Too bad Bobby has gone away. I can see why he isn't posting anymore. __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

August 24, 2011, 03:01 PM	#102
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	I Have my suspicions about some of BBs posts some of them don't add up. Some seam anti gun to me i didn't like to come out and say he was a troll so we will see if he comes back on to defend him self. He said that the metropolitan police have firearms training, him being a police officer should know that police in the MET don't have firearms training unless they are in armed response.

August 24, 2011, 10:02 PM	#105
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	first, i do not usualy post to this forum but i will now. whats good for us may not be good for them. guns is in our blood maybe not so much theirs. Anything that involves such a large segment of the population remains legal no matter what, and in great brittain i dont believe its a very large population at all owns or wants to own guns. Our constitutional law has been interpreted as being legal for individuals to posess guns for too long now to change it. Theres no such thing as saying its legal to own guns for 200+ years and then saying "oh wait there may be a mistake guns are just for police and military". you do that and the economy will be the least of everyones worries.

August 25, 2011, 10:01 AM	#106
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Crank, What folks need to realize is that the gun came to america with those who settled here... Guns were a part of their euro lives thus brought here... No more a part of life for us as them... they just opted to let the monarchy do to them that led to a massacre of civvies by redcoats... THEY CAME FOR THE GUNS FIRST!!! That really wasn't well accepted as our founding populace saw the means to an end england was (literally) shootin' for... Brent

August 25, 2011, 10:25 AM	#107
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Agree hogdogs, We don't just have guns today simply cause they've always been here. The only reason we have guns today is the fact that we have demanded them and fought over the years for the right to keep them. We don't have to go back many years at all in our own history to find bills that were/are drafted trying to cripple our gun rights. IMO,make no mistake, if our pro-gun movement wasn't as strong as it is today, we wouldn't have our gun freedoms we have today. Also, its a continued fight that will never end. Don't believe that, just search some of the more recent anti-gun bills that have been drafted and voted down just this year.

August 25, 2011, 12:02 PM	#111
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	Just cause it came up, 3 billion is drop in the bucket as far as GDP in the U.S. Warren Buffet just gave Bank of America $5 Billion Country GDP (millions of US$) — World 62,909,274[4] — European Union 16,282,230[4] 1 United States 14,657,800 2 People's Republic of China 5,878,257[nb 2] 3 Japan 5,458,872 4 Germany 3,315,643 5 France 2,582,527 6 United Kingdom 2,247,455

August 25, 2011, 04:19 PM	#112
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	We have guns because our founding fathers saw a higher need for personal freedom. How could we have a free country if the govt imposed restrictions upon us from the start? Freedom is and was more important. I dont see any other country with tehe same level of freedom as we enjoy here.

August 25, 2011, 10:32 PM	#117
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	I can't see this site as something he'd spend tons of time checking. I mean he can't even own a gun in the first place

August 26, 2011, 10:30 AM	#118
graysmoke Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 378	European countries have a mainly Socialistic rule concept of goverments. Those goverments keep a control and restrictions on certain things society can own, and have. Obama and his theory idea of 'Change' is very similar, if not the same to this. __________________ "Keep your powder dry, and eyes on the target". -R. Lee Ermey

August 26, 2011, 10:44 AM	#119
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	It seems that British Bobby saw little need to defend his position. He left at about post 40.

August 29, 2011, 12:06 PM	#121
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	So European governments have a socialistic concept of government? Does that mean we have an anti-socialistic form of government? Regarding serfdom, that is not a state of life one willingly enters into. You are born a serf. You belong to the land. Later, some lord got the idea they could make more money with sheep on the land than with people, and the idea of serfdom became old-fashioned. People didn't matter any more and that was a long time ago. But it probably contributed to people coming to the new world. They did not necessarily come for more freedom. Go read about the Puritans. British (not necessarily European) ideas about arms control really began with the English Civil Wars. We have the quaint idea that only modern wars are destructive. They also resisted the idea of fortifications around cities, thinking that because there were fortifications around cities on the continent, they had more wars. Do we really have lots of gun factories, by the way? When I go to a gun shop, I see Sigs, Glocks, Walthers, CZs, H&K and other fine products not made here. Maybe the original poster is uninformed as to where guns are actually made. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 29, 2011, 12:48 PM	#122
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I hope I didn't play a role in his short stay... I don't wantcha to leave mad... Just leave... Brent

August 29, 2011, 08:12 PM	#124
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	British Bobby hasn't been back to view this thread, since his last post, back on the 19th. I'm calling "troll," and closing the thread.