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Old August 12, 2017, 09:27 PM   #26
rickyrick
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Well in my case, I wasn't thinking enough, so I felt it needed to correct my erroneous post. I don't like deleting a post because it adds confusion, lol.

I'm not satisfied that everything will be inoperative, some items may survive, but only as an exception.
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Old August 13, 2017, 01:07 AM   #27
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There are some additional points to consider, one of which is "size" (strength, power, however measured), not the geographical area covered.

EMP is created as one of the effects of a nuclear detonation. The strength of the effect varies with a large number of variables.

Within the area of effect it is known to fry just about everything that relies on a micro chip, and even vacuum tube devices can be affected, it the pulse is close enough and strong enough.

Shielding is protection, BUT, as I understand it (and my understanding might be flawed) if your stuff is shielded against "X", if you are hit with X.1, your stuff is toast.

Home made shielding (assuming it was enough) can only work when what you want protected is inside it.

Unless you know just WHEN an EMP burst is going to arrive, will your vital things even BE in shielded storage??

SO, assume any "modern" electronic anything will be toast. That includes cars with electronic ignitions. Don't assume you can grab a distributor off the (unshielded) shelf, slap in a rig and drive away, either.

And, of course all this assumes you are outside the radius of the physical blast effect AND the radiation.

Don't expect electronic sights to work, if they do, be pleasantly surprised, but don't plan on them working after a high enough EMP pulse.
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Old August 13, 2017, 01:40 AM   #28
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Even if you shield the equipment well, any conductors going outside the shield may conduct the pulse inside. (There's a reason EMI / TEMPEST engineers make the big bucks.)
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Old August 13, 2017, 03:18 PM   #29
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44 AMP,
The E1 pulse is caused be gamma rays knocking electrons free from atmospheric atoms. The more atmosphere it goes through the more "powerful" the pulse is. You don't have to worry about radiation or blast from a high altitude device. They are detonated at altitudes that don't propagate explosive blasts and the atmosphere protects us from the radiation. All you will notice is a bright flash (not blinding) in the sky and then none of your unprotected electronics will work. Then you might see a few pole mounted transformers explode and following that the major transmission lines and big generators and transformers will burst into flame. Then your lights go out, the water stops running, and all the electrical things we depend on quit working.
Why would South Korea target a city with a small nuke when they can put one in orbit and let it circle the earth until it goes over Wichita and take out the entire nation? Even the middle eastern countries have the capability to make such a surprise attack. It would be improbable that a source could be found for the detonation so even though some of our military gear would survive we would have no way to know who to shoot at.
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Old August 14, 2017, 10:49 AM   #30
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A question more in line for a TFL-oriented topic: How will a key-pad gun safe be affected?
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Old August 14, 2017, 11:21 AM   #31
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From I know of the subject.

1. Unpowered electronics will have a much better survival rate.
2. Battery and low power electronics will again have better survival rate
3. Small electronics will have better survival rates.
4. Equipment not hooked to the electrical grid will have MUCH higher survival rate.

an EMP is likely to do major damage to power transmission lines and radio equipment, Conductor length will play a roll, longer wire = greater effect.

I'd guess small electronics like are in your red dot will probably survive more often then not especially if they are unpowered (which they likely will be)

It wont be like the movies where all the cars stop working every computer is fried.

They don't REALLY know how modern electronics will fare, If you wanna build a cage that's fine as someone pointed out they're not particularly expensive or complex but Im less worried about a EMP and more worried about blast Radius..

If one hit the closest major city to me Im right on the edge of what MIGHT be survival depending on what type of nuke is used.

Just my luck I'll survive the blast, Get a massive dose of radiation and be the walking dead slowly dying.

Better to fry in the inner zone.
Only comfort (if you can call it that) If someone was to nuke the US Ohio is probably not a high first strike priority.
If North Korea followed thru and attacked the mainland US they would probably target CA.. closest target with a high population, Heart of the I.T industry, Fair bit of Military targets too..

But I think if someone lets off a Nuke they're going for body count.
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Old August 14, 2017, 11:47 AM   #32
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Art asked
Quote:
A question more in line for a TFL-oriented topic: How will a key-pad gun safe be affected?
It is likely an electronic keypad gunsafe will become non-functional.
The mechanical push button keypads will be fine.
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Old August 14, 2017, 12:50 PM   #33
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Here is the PDF of an unclassified EMP effects presentation I did several years ago for the Arizona Department of Emergency Management. The laws of physics haven't changed in that time, so it's a reasonable overview. For those of you with PhD's in EM, I know I left a lot out between Maxwell's Equations and results and jumped to the practicalities.

The focus of this presentation was on a ground based truck delivered Improvised Nuclear Device. When you elevate the nuclear device to very high altitudes, the LD50 (electronic lethal range) footprint is very large, likely order of magnitude 1000 miles.

An added note: For the abbreviated version on why it doesn't matter if your electronics are powered up or not, go to slides 15 and 16. Slide 19 shows a notional footprint of a near-ground burst device, not HEMP.



Damage Expectations from an Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP) in an Urban Environment


ITAR DISCLAIMER: Pursuant to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) 2008, a public domain exemption is claimed, including one or more of the following: 120(a), 120(a) (1), 120(a) (6), and 120.11(a) (8).
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Old August 14, 2017, 01:01 PM   #34
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If you see the flash from a nuclear weapon, you'll probably never have another good day in your life. We'd have already lost our ability to have electric power; transportation would be minimal, because there probably wouldn't be just one blast. It will be the end of our country or perhaps the world, as we know it.

I lived through the fear of nuclear weapons all my early life (1950s) and refuse to worry about it now. If I die, I die.

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Old August 14, 2017, 01:07 PM   #35
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Art,
there are two types of EMP. A solar EMP, solar flare or coronal mass ejection only affects long wires and devices connected to them. Large transformers and power generators have a lot of wire in them so they are also affected. Small runs of wire and electronics are not affected by solar EMPs.
The HEMP is very different. There are three pulses from a high altitude nuclear detonation. The E3 is very much like the solar event and carries the same destruction. The E2 is a faster rise time event with higher voltages and affects shorter runs of wires and transformers like are on the pole outside on the street. Only the E1 pulse will effect electronics and it does so with a very high voltage. 50000 volts per meter is on the moderate voltage for these E1 pulses. It can penetrate deep into the ground and get into very small holes to your electronic equipment. It burns the junction in diodes and transistors rendering them useless.
The E1 pulse comes first, in the first milliseconds of the detonation. Followed by the E2 pulse and then the E3 pulse hits. The E3 pulse has the highest current flow and that is why long wires, transformers and generators burst into flames. The E2 pulse has higher voltages that the E3 but lower current and it affects shorter runs of wire (1/4 mile instead of mile long wires) like the street transformers. The only thing that is affected by the E1 pulse is the junction of semiconductors and the smaller the junction the more susceptible it is. A very large high amp discrete diode is less likely to be damaged than the diodes in an integrated circuit. The battery isolator in a motor home has three diodes that are huge and will likely survive better than the CPU in your computer or the IC in your safe keypad. The smaller the diode the more sensitive they are to voltage spikes. The E1 is one huge voltage spike. That it why it is important to use the most conductive metals when making shielding against it. Aluminum, copper, silver or gold are the only acceptable metals for this purpose. It happens faster than a lightning bolt. It takes less than 4 millionths of a second from start to finish and carries 50000 volts per meter over the entire affected area. The atmosphere is ionized to the point where it will not carry radio signals for minutes after.
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Old August 14, 2017, 01:42 PM   #36
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It is vitally important to recognize that there is no direct danger to human or other life forms from a high altitude nuclear detonation. There will be a flash of light. There will not be a blast. There will not be any harmful radiation.
TXAZ did an extremely good job of showing the effects from a ground burst detonation but it has little to do with the effects of an HEMP. The only people who will be directly or indirectly affected by an HEMP are those who depend on electronics for life. People in an ICU or those on kidney dialysis. Your pace maker may be affected. (the pace maker is embedded in your body and may not be affected)
The E1 pulse is generated locally over a very wide area. If you are in a line of sight with the HEMP your electronics will be affected unless they are shielded. A typical Faraday cage will not stop the E1 pulse. You need highly conductive solid shielding and multiple layers are better than one thick shield. (due mostly to the capacitive effect)
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Old August 14, 2017, 02:19 PM   #37
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Some folk might remember the Kirkland Trestle all wood EMP testing stage.
It was a truly unique structure built almost entirely of wood and airplanes were towed out onto it and then subjected to electromagnetic pulses. They were able to generate EMP's without a nuclear explosion. A story about it is here:
http://ece-research.unm.edu/summa/notes/trestle.html
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Old August 14, 2017, 02:48 PM   #38
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The biggest problem in testing against HEMP is the difficulty in duplicating the extremely fast rise time and short duration in a 50000 volt spike. Transformers and super fast capacitors just can't duplicate the brute force of the HEMP. That is why super computers are used in testing now. A gap or hole of 0.1mm can defeat an HEMP shield.
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Old August 14, 2017, 04:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS View Post
It is vitally important to recognize that there is no direct danger to human or other life forms from a high altitude nuclear detonation. There will be a flash of light. There will not be a blast. There will not be any harmful radiation.
The EMP won't but an air burst will still have air blast causing over pressure (shock wave) which will knock down buildings for considerable distance.

You'll still have to contend with thermal heat causing fires and burns.

You just don't have all the (now radioactive) debris you'd get with a surface detonation getting tossed into the atmosphere as fallout.


It's not like a air burst nuke just knocks electronics out and we're good to go.
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Old August 14, 2017, 04:39 PM   #40
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Clint Smith said 2 weeks after the balloon goes up everyone will be back to open sights. So I hope you have open sights installed on your gun. Of course you could also make little tin foil hats for your red dots and they will be safe.
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Old August 14, 2017, 05:22 PM   #41
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I think the whole point in an above atmosphere blast is so that the blast won't reach the earth. A blast wave on earth is from air being pushed out and pushing on more air. If the blast is in space, there's no air to push, therefore no blast wave.

The EMP comes from radioactive rays knocking elections out of their orbit. All electricity is from electrons being pushed out of their orbits, this is relatively easy in conductive materials. Any matter can conduct if a big enough push is applied to it. I never realized the scale at which this happens until we started discussing it here. So we have an enormous amount of energy causing normally non-conductive matter to shed its electrons. Also the particles are traveling near the speed of light so the E1 pulse that everyone is mentioning is very strong but also happens in a really short duration.
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Old August 14, 2017, 06:38 PM   #42
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Ricky checking this out, It's a real eye opener: https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
You can see estimates based on yeld, has as lot of settings to play with.

Short end of it for me at least is Im probably safe from NK.
Largest known weapon they tested was 10kt.. even if we bump it up to 60kt (largest known tested by India) I should be safe.

A 1mt minuteman is where things get dicy for me, if you're not an optimist, although probably survive.
It says largest Chinese ICBM is 5mt Feng-5.. Im more than likely dead, surface, airburst, wont' matter.
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Old August 14, 2017, 07:37 PM   #43
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An old microwave oven makes a nice Faraday cage.
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Old August 15, 2017, 02:19 AM   #44
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a high altitude nuclear detonation. There will be a flash of light. There will not be a blast. There will not be any harmful radiation.
Unless you are in the Space Station, or a high altitude aircraft unlucky enough to be within the range of the effect. No heat, blast or rad effect to people on the ground from an edge of space nuc detonation, but you could be fried if you're up there closer. Since that's not going to be me, or anyone I know, I won't sweat it, much.

Quote:
Of course you could also make little tin foil hats for your red dots and they will be safe.
Nothing that wears a little tinfoil hat is "safe".

I think we're still pretty much protected by the MAD principle, as long as those who could do it are not madmen, or devoted believers in a one true God who will protect them. In order to take out everything we might use to shoot back, they would literally have to EMP the entire world, and that would include themselves. And, if any of our nuc missle subs survived, they would, eventually get targeting orders, even if they had to be hand written and delivered by sailing ship....

Interesting subject, but not one I'm gonna lose sleep over. Pretty sure my old Weaver scopes will still be functional, no matter what level of EMP they endure.
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Old August 15, 2017, 09:03 AM   #45
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Check out what happens when you nuke LA with a 1mt bomb airbrust

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?...m-100,35&zm=10

Optimized for a 5psi over pressure (most residential buildings destroyed)
Optimal detonation height is 10,240ft.. or about 2 miles.
The Air blast radius is 4.73miles

but check out the much larger thermal radiation (heat) ring
100% probability of 3rd degree burns, 7.57miles radius
Minimum distance for no burns, 17.3 miles.

if it's 2 miles up you're not safe from the heat.


There are no options to select for optimal EMP altitude so maybe that would be higher but can you really imagine an enemy launching a nuke at us and be focused solely with EMP effects?
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Old August 15, 2017, 12:43 PM   #46
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There are no options to select for optimal EMP altitude so maybe that would be higher but can you really imagine an enemy launching a nuke at us and be focused solely with EMP effects?
The "high altitude" EMP detonation ShootistPRS is talking about is in orbital space, at the edge of, or even outside the atmosphere. This is an ENTIRELY different thing than an airburst at 2 miles up, which is INTENDED to cause destruction on the ground. The edge of space detonation is 10-12 miles higher up, and this distance makes a huge difference.

Yes, I CAN imagine an enemy launching an EMP strike, in fact I can see them doing it, IN PREFERENCE over a conventional airburst or ground burst.

In fact, its almost the perfect strike against a modern enemy. Clean (no fallout), doesn't destroy cities, buildings, or leave large burned, areas. Direct loss of life is virtually zero. (as mentioned, those who need electricity to survive because of a medical condition will die when the power goes away, but the rest of the population will not be physically harmed by the EMP)

It's rather elegant in its own way. With one good "zap" you send your enemy back to 1800s technology, and you do it without destroying cities, or killing people in job lots. NO Hiroshima type effect, or death toll.

IN fact, its quite likely that whomever the target is, the people will be "in the dark" not just because the lights go out, but also about who attacked, where, and why. The WHEN will be obvious, but nothing else, and there will be NO modern communications net to distribute information. What ever we wind up with as a functional government after the ZAP won't even be able to know the will of the people any more rapidly than the pony express can deliver the mail.

Another effect of the ZAP, is that our economy WILL collapse. On the plus side, you won't have to worry about paying your credit card bills for a while, but the down side is any "money" that isn't a physical thing is simply gone.

Billions and billions of dollars will simply cease to exist. Everything in electronic transfer at the time of the ZAP, gone without a trace. Money in banks won't be useful for a while, either, because anything not written on paper will be gone, and without records of who owns what, they can't give out anything to anyone. So forget about taking your money out of the bank, as well, and that's assuming the banks are even open.

So, while a ZAP attack would be a very, very bad thing, it wouldn't leave smoking craters where cities once stood, nor hundreds of thousands of dead and dying as constant reminders. That might be enough to convince some unbalanced fanatic that it would be worth the risk.

Personally, I think anyone who did take the risk would learn what the Japanese learned after Pearl Harbor. That in the end, we don't quit. There would be no negotiated peace, until AFTER the aggressor nation was wrecked, up to and including nuclear fire as a "persuader".

and, then, there is the rest of the world. An EMP strike is still a nuclear attack. Weapon of Mass Destruction. We have treaties, and beyond those we have "gentleman's agreements", and beyond those there is simple self interest, so I doubt the rest of the world would simply sit back and watch. Many would, but some will recognize the necessity of "shooting the mad dog" to preserve themselves.

Again, not something I am personally going to worry about, but something prepper types (who used to be called survivalists) might want to consider.

And paper money won't be worth much, if anything, either.
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Old August 15, 2017, 03:03 PM   #47
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I just don't see it.. it's almost like you think using a nuke in this way would somehow be devoid of consequences.

First off if someone saw a missile coming they'd launch a counter.
So do you really wanna attack someone like the US with a EMP when you're getting the full Monte in return?
Even if you detonated it 12 miles up you'd still know about it before it actually went off.
12 miles is nothing for a missle to cover they know about them long before then.

Not all electronics are going to fry.. it just ain't gonna happen.
Yes it could/would cause disruptions, The economy would take a hit sure.. it would not collapse.

I see it as a really poor use of a nuke and almost certainly carry deadly consequences for the user.
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Old August 15, 2017, 03:04 PM   #48
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As a child of the 1960s growing up within 11 miles of a major SAC base, we were frequently put through drills where we would hide under our desks until the all-clear signal was given.
Well, at least that explains your username!!
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Old August 15, 2017, 03:40 PM   #49
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JoeSixpack,
The bomb can be put in orbit for years before it is detonated. North Korea just put a satellite in orbit last year, it could be a bomb. The satellite can rotate around the earth for days, weeks, months or years before it is detonated. There is no missile to track. There could be multiple warheads in space right now and some could even be ours. There is no way to know that there is a bomb in orbit until it goes off.

Devoid of consequences? No but finding out the origin of the bomb, the state that launched it and the state that set it off might be three different countries. There is simply no way to know who did it until they take the credit, if they take credit for it.
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Old August 15, 2017, 03:46 PM   #50
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They track satellites in space they need to know where they all are so there is not a collision, along with tracking space debris which can disable satellites.

I would think they'd have a good idea where it came from..

But nukes in orbit like you're talking about is banned by Treaty.
I don't remember the name or who all signed it but Im pretty sure all the big names are on it.

Could someone put one in orbit sure.. any evidence that there is?
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