Any decent all steel precision 9 mm semi-auto's out there?

[ZEN.45]

I’m from neighboring Belgium and around here 95% of the shooters that want the best possible precision 9mm went with one of the following:

- SIG P210
- SIG-Sauer X-series
- Tanfoglio (Italian improved CZ)
- Sphinx (Swiss improved CZ / now bankrupt)
- CZ Phantom (Phantom 2 gaining popularity fast)
- the older generation often still use some customized High Power

If you want a customized 1911 then gunsmith Drummen (NL) will build you one (if you have deep pockets).

[Siggy-06]

CZ 75(and variants), Browning Hi Power, 1911 in 9mm, IWI Jericho 941.

[rshaw]

Hi all,
I have been making the rounds here in the gunshops and private sellers on the internet in the Netherlands.... very interesting, but so hard to make a decision!! All these comments are extremely helpful- thank you!

We are allowed to have, and shoot, a maximum of 5 firearms, not larger than 9 mm here after being in possession of a weapons permit for 1 year. After 2 years, one can include 45 cal. but the max number stays fixed at 5 firearms. A collector's permit allows one to expand that number virtually without limit, but within the limits of time period, manufacturer or other restrictions stated by the applicant when applying for the collector's permit. Collector pieces my not be fired without special arrangement; so when one wants to shoot, one is really limited to the maximum 5 weapons on the basic permit.

I have come across an unusual Luger P08- the bullbarrel target gun- one of 200 made by Mauser in 1975-1976. Perhaps this is more of a collector's piece... but the price is within the range of $2500 to 4000 quoted here for other target pieces.... and the accuracy of Luger is well known. Hopefully I will be able to see this gun next week. Otherwise I have tracked down a Swiss Luger 1906/29 in 7,65 cal rig, a CZ 75, Browning Hi Power, Springfield P9 and a Swiss Sig P210 (2,5 hours from here by car!)... Can only decide for one of these, since I will have reached my limit of 5....

From the above, it is clear that I have to decide between purely a target gun- versus one of these older vintage specials which are fascinating in their own right....

Appreciate all the feedback.....

[Jim Watson]

I have seen only one of those Mauser Parabellum Sport Modells ever and thought it an interesting pistol. I don't know how well it actually shoots.

Member bac1023 has one, maybe he will comment. Send him a message.

Otherwise, from the list you show, I would take the trip for the P210.

Anecdote: There was a small town physician near here who liked to shoot, he even had a range behind his office. He bought TWO P210s because he shot every day at lunch and wanted to have a spare. About 20 years later, he sold the spare because it was obvious that he was not going to be able to wear out the first. I narrowly missed being able to buy it.

[jrkrace]

I'm pretty happy with my Sig Legion 226 SAO......way more accurate than I am...

[rshaw]

Well, I contacted the shop with the Sig P 210- there's another customer who has an option on it- but the shop will contact me if it's still available next week.
Meanwhile.... still have to hear back about that bull barrel Luger. I'll ring them tomorrow
This is fun... but mentally exhausting. I don't do this very often at all!!
I'm tending toward the Sig if I'm really honest....

[bac1023]

Well, I contacted the shop with the Sig P 210- there's another customer who has an option on it- but the shop will contact me if it's still available next week.
Meanwhile.... still have to hear back about that bull barrel Luger. I'll ring them tomorrow
This is fun... but mentally exhausting. I don't do this very often at all!!
I'm tending toward the Sig if I'm really honest....

The Sig P210 is, in my opinion, the finest pistol ever made. I speak of the forged -5 and -6 target models from the 1960's and 1970's when I say this.

[rshaw]

Pretty strong endorsement!!
Have to wait until I hear from that shop...
Thank you!

[rshaw]

Hi again,
Found a Sig p210-6 which looks very nice. Price looks reasonable as well. Looks like it was built in 1982. I have sent the seller an email asking the following:
- Are you the first owner? (Original box and instruction book + 2 mag included)
- Was this firearm built in 1982?
- What ammunition have you used?
- Why are you selling this firearm?
- Is this a Swiss Sig? If not, could you tell me where it was built?

I have been searching the Internet to find the difference(s) between the original Sig p210 and this gun the p210-6.
I found this statement:
"The SIG P210 started out as military sidearm and the P210 - 5 and -6 were pretty much the target versions of it. The main difference of the -5 and -6 is the trigger contour and that the hammer unit is fixed to the frame with a screw. On the -6 there was the option of adjustable rear sights. The tolerances on the -6 are tighter than on the -4 and so I could not use my KPS .22 conversion in it."

Anything else you experts would add? Your opinions of the p210-6?
Any disadvantages to using a screw to fix the hammer unit to the frame?
Sounds very similar to the original, about which I have heard only very positive feedback.
Again, many thanks for your replies

[Jim Watson]

I own a P210-6. It came with fixed sights but I found a set of proper adjustables for it.
It is a well made and accurate pistol. If the one you are looking at was made in 1982, it was made in Switzerland, the German Legend series is much more recent.

Depending on your hand shape and your grasp of the gun, it MAY hammer bite the web of your hand. I am not affected but a friend was.

I assume that the screw holding the lockwork is to position it securely for control of sear engagement at the -6's lighter trigger pull. It may also be used to retain an attached "beavertail" if you suffer hammer bite. Mine has not worked loose.

The thumb safety is not as convenient as it looks. Extensions are available.

The heel magazine catch is strong and positive, the magazine is tight in the well. You will not have problems due to magazine movement in the gun, but you will not be making any speed loads, either.

The trigger pull is light and controllable. There is a good deal of takeup in the trigger before it contacts the sear and the actual firing trigger pull is felt.

There is a magazine disconnect, the pistol will not fire a round in the chamber if there is not a magazine inserted.

The gun was designed for 7.65 and 9mm with no intention of accommodating .45 like the P75/P220 series. This gives it a slender appearance and a low barrel axis which reduces muzzle rise. Recoil of an all steel 9mm is not much.

[Troy800]

+1 on the P210, its a classic and razor accurate. May also consider P226 SAO or X5 if you are looking for target pistol.

[rock185]

rshaw, reference the P210-6 specifically, both of mine were 1980s production. One, with adjustable sights, was '86-'87 production, IIRC. My current fixed sight -6 is '83 production. Both demonstrated flawless reliability and superlative accuracy. That extra screw to secure the en bloc hammer/sear housing created no issues. For me, the two -2s I had were just as accurate as my -6s. Much as I admire the Swiss P210s, they do hammer bite me badly. That is one reason I enjoy the German P210 Legend guns so much. No hammer bite, no bloodshed

BTW, Much as I like the 210s, if one of those bull barrel Luger Sport models became available, I'd be sorely tempted.

[rshaw]

Hi all!
Many thanks for these most recent and very insightful replies!
I'm looking more closely now at three possibilities
- Swiss Sig p210 / need to call the shop in two or three days
- 1982 Swiss Sig p210-6 / private seller, we've been texting a lot... looks good!
will see it in the middle of October.
- 1975 Luger bullbarrel - Very curious about this gun, will see it next week

Will also take a closer look at the other Sigs, and the CZ 75's + variants-
I have seen them also in various places here in NL.
The choice is almost TOO wide!

1911's are hard to come by, same for the S&W 952.

I have collated all these replies into a single list... (I need to go about this more systematically.)
At the end of the day I have to LIKE the gun, it's feel and performance of course. It's a one off investment, and I need to get this right

Jim, many thanks for your comments on the Sig p210-6! I will take these with me when I see this gun in the middle of October.
Meanwhile, I have some more work to do.

MANY thanks for all these helpful replies!

[bac1023]

Ok Mr. Shaw, sorry for the delay. Here are some suggestions from my personal collection.

The Sig P210 is, in my opinion, the finest pistol built. I'm talking about the Swiss target variants with the forged frame, not the later CNC frame. Shown here is a 2002 CNC Heavy Frame P210-6, an extremely rare forged Heavy Frame P210-6 model from 1975, a 1967 forged p210-6, and a 1954 P210-1






The Smith & Wesson 952 was brought up, so I'll include it here. They are outstanding. Here we have a 952-1, a 952-2 Longslide, and the even more accurate PPC9 in both standard and longslide configuration.







If you like Sig Sauer pistols, I recommend the German Mastershop guns, such as this P226 Sport, P226 X-Five Short, or this P226 X-Five L1






The Browning Hi Power was brought up in this thread a couple of times.
I don't consider them precision or high end. I do consider them to be very classy and beautiful, with a very extensive military history. Just be sure to get an older all Belgian forged frame model, such as these from 1960, 1962, 1969, and 1972






The CZ design is outstanding. Sphinx of Switzerland made the absolute highest quality pistols to use the design. Shown here are a Sphinx AT2000S, a Sphinx Competitor, a CZ 75 Champion, and a CZ 75 Tactical Sport.






If you like sexy Italian pistols, there are many to choose from in the high end category. Shown here are two Beretta Steel I pistols (one SAO and one DA/SA), a Pardini GT9, a Benelli MP3S (target variant of the B76), Beretta 92 Combat, and Bernardelli Practical VB.

[bac1023]

Austria built some accurate pistols over the years. Shown here are two Steyr GBs and the very intricate and high quality Wolf Ultramatic in both SV and LV form.






I'm not sure if the HK P7 Series was mentioned. While they aren't target pistols, they are very precision and high quality handguns. their fixed barrel makes them quite accurate as well. Here we have a couple P7s, a couple P7M8s, and a P7M13.






The Walther P88 Series is outstanding. Shown here is an ultra rare P88 Competition with the SAO trigger, a P88 compact, and a standard P88. The Browning GP Competition is also shown, which is a target version of the Hi Power. Finally the HK P9S Sport is one of the most accurate pistols in the world.






For something truly exotic, the Korth Autopistol, Korriphila HSP 701, MAB PAP F1, Delta Top Gun, or the Mauser Parabellum sport will suite your fancy.








Hopefully, this gives you some choices. Most of these range from difficult to virtually impossible to find, but finding them is half the fun.
Let me know if you want more info about any model in particular.

Brian

[Jim Watson]

OP said he had a chance at a Parabellum Sport.
How is it as a shooter?

[rshaw]

Hi bac1023, and you all....
A VERY impressive pistol collection and well worded descriptions!! MANY, many thanks- also for the good photos

I will be going over this post very carefully as I scour the possibilities in NL and match them against your and other forum contributors' comments, and, of course, prices.

As Jim Watson mentioned, I am considering a 1975 Luger P08 Sport, and I understand you have one. Have you shot this gun? Or do you prefer to keep yours as a collector / not to be shot? I would value your opinion and the opinions of others on this collector/ shooter question as the Luger will likely be more expensive than most of these other excellent firearms (I understand there were only 200 Luger bull barrels ever made.) You mentioned a few rare pieces in the above lineup- are these brought to the range every so often?

Yes, finding these is half the fun. Making an informed choice is also great fun and quite a challenge, since a choice of 1 brings my total to the maximum 5 allowed in the Netherlands (until my collector license comes through- at least a year away.)

[bac1023]

OP said he had a chance at a Parabellum Sport.
How is it as a shooter?

I only had mine to the range once. Its shoots well. Trigger is so much better than any Luger trigger I ever felt. They are exceedingly rare. About 80 were made in 9mm and about 60 were made in 30 Luger. That's it. Finding one could really be a once in a lifetime event.

Its still no Sig P210 though. Far from it.

[rshaw]

Wow!

[bac1023]

Hi bac1023, and you all....

A VERY impressive pistol collection and well worded descriptions!! MANY, many thanks- also for the good photos

I will be going over this post very carefully as I scour the possibilities in NL and match them against your and other forum contributors' comments, and, of course, prices.

As Jim Watson mentioned, I am considering a 1975 Luger P08 Sport, and I understand you have one. Have you shot this gun? Or do you prefer to keep yours as a collector / not to be shot? I would value your opinion and the opinions of others on this collector/ shooter question as the Luger will likely be more expensive than most of these other excellent firearms (I understand there were only 200 ever made.) You mentioned a few rare pieces in the above lineup- are these brought to the range every so often?

Yes, finding these is half the fun. Making an informed choice is also great fun and quite a challenge, since a choice of 1 brings my total to the maximum 5 allowed in the Netherlands (until my collector license comes through- at least a year away.)

If you want a great shooter, go with a forged Sig P210-6.
The Sport Parabellum is a cool collector's item. It does not have the build quality or accuracy prowess of the Sig.

What are the serial numbers of the P210's you are considering?

[rshaw]

I will ask the seller re the SN of the Sig p210-6.
Will get back to you, thanks.

[rshaw]

Just checked the advertisement photo
SN = P 308049 on the rail, and on the frame -
On the left side forward of trigger guard / one # directly over the other.

"P 310-6" over the safety lever, also left side

Built in 1982
Has original box, papers, 2 mags

[bac1023]

That's a CNC model. Still a great pistol.

What makes you think it was built in '82?

[rshaw]

Seller mentioned that date in the ad.
Did not specifically state "built in 1982"
Have asked him for clarification.

Tha ad reads as follows:
"Sig P210-6 1982
Firearm in very good condition
Includes original box, 2 mags, instr manual"

He mentioned in a text that He brought it from a police officer 3 years ago.
Has to sell it since He needs to cancel his permit- said its an original Swiss made firearm...
What would you consider to be fair price, (I assume you are in the US?) if I may ask?

Sorry for my ignorance,but what is a "CNC model?"
Thanks!

[bac1023]

The seller is probably getting the 1982 from the munitions date on the test target. That is not the production date. That serial number puts it about 1989-1990. The early 80’s models used forged frames.

CNC frames are machined a bit different. It’s also looked at as having less hand fitting by the time the frames changed. That’s why the forged target models bring more money on average.