Question for 45 Dragoon or anyone else who knows the answer

BlackPowderBen · November 5, 2015, 08:34 AM

I have a brass frame for a 1851 navy and the arbor is really loose. Does anyone have a cure for a loose arbor? The pin that goes over the arbor in the back of the frame under the hammer has been replaced with a very small screw. I can unscrew the arbor and take it right out of the frame.

JB Weld has been tried and i came loose in 7 shots.
Will locktite work better? I probally would only use 20 grains or less of powder.

DD4lifeusmc · November 5, 2015, 09:00 AM

no loctite won't hold up either.

Is the hole in the frame wallowed out? If so not much can be done, especially at the home level

Two things that may work.
Have a machine shop permanently braze the arbor in.
Or if the arbor hole in frame is still tight. possibly drill the pin hole slightly larger and install a new hardened pin.
which could be almost impossible because the screw threads from the screw may have already made the hole to big already

good luck

foolzrushn · November 5, 2015, 11:04 AM

and also I think it might be a tough job. You would probably need to have the brazing done with the barrel and cylinder in place, to hold the arbor straight. They might even want to fab a tight fitting rod to keep the barrel/cylinder alignment in place. Different metals cool at different rates and can move if not held in place.

They would need to work through the hammer slot for the first tack, to hold things in place. Then remove the barrel/cylinder to access the arbor on the front of the recoil shield. The recoil ring(??) would probably be involved and need to be reformed.

All this without melting away too much brass and still getting the steel arbor hot enough to braze. This is almost in the realm of a custom jewelry maker with a tiny torch. What would it cost?

Brazing would be a durable fix, machining an oversized arbor (the part in the brass) might work.....but Cabelas has a new one for $200 and you would have spare parts.

Good luck.

Fingers McGee · November 5, 2015, 01:03 PM

Get a replacement frame off of Gunbroker and turn the old frame into wall art.

Auction # 519989778

Doc Hoy · November 5, 2015, 03:08 PM

I have tried drilling down through the frame and arbor and putting in a locking screw. Drilling the locking pin whole larger. Loctite. a JB Weld equivalent which my mechanic says was better than JB Weld. silver soldering the arbor into the frame. Replacing the arbor with a new one. All the profanity I can think of. I have never been able to permanently tighten a loose arbor in a brass frame revolver.

Even replacing the frame is not all beer and skittles since you might have trouble finding one which will fit.

That brings us to my suggestion which I think is an improvement over Fingers'. ;o) Part out the revolver selling the stuff on eVilbay. You will very likely get enough for the parts to buy a brand new revolver when Cabela's puts them on sale. Assuming the stuff is in good condition, the barrel is worth 75.00, the cylinder is worth 50.00 (Make sure to take the nipples out and then turn them back in hand tight. People like that.) Triggerguard, backstrap and grip should fetch 40.00. All of the innards and screws are worth 25.00. You might actually get enough to buy a steel one.

No offense intended, Fingers.

swathdiver · November 5, 2015, 06:05 PM

Hang it on the wall or sell it for parts on ebay. Take the proceeds and buy another in steel and use the leftover for more ammo.

BlackPowderBen · November 5, 2015, 06:17 PM

yeah I'll scrap the idea of trying to tighten it

45 Dragoon · November 5, 2015, 07:33 PM

There ya go!! Lol!

Just saw this post!

Probably the best thing to do with a brass frame revolver is to correct the arbor problem right off the bat. (Of course that's the best thing to do with ANY open top!!)
I'm getting ready to set up a brass frame to be used with max.loads as a test.
My thoughts are, just as a steel frame will eat wedges if not set up, so will a softer frame (brass) deform if it is allowed to. Any time you have space in the transmission of a shock wave, the two or more parts will beat each other to failure. With a brass frame being softer than its steel counter part, it's no wonder it will shoot loose if not set up properly. When you think about it, it's a must for the brasser to be set up to deal with the stress of firing. My prediction is that a properly "fixed" brasser will handel full loads just as a steel frame will.
There will be a count of shots fired along with load info kept for the "test".

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Hawg · November 5, 2015, 11:48 PM

Quote:

My prediction is that a properly "fixed" brasser will handel full loads just as a steel frame will.

Then why won't a Remington .36 stand up to full loads?

Fingers McGee · November 5, 2015, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocHoy

No offense intended, Fingers.
__________________

Non taken Doc. Your solution has a lot of merit.

Like they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat - or more to the point, compensate for a brass frame & loose arbor.

45 Dragoon · November 6, 2015, 12:29 AM

Hawg,
Because the arbor is stronger than the Remie frame. I always tell folks that but they keep repeating the same old . . . . . line.

The only frame I've ever bent was a brass Remie and it was while I was loading obviously too big of balls. The same balls in the brass Colt type resulted in a loaded gun not a bent or pulled or anything else.

The linear forces put on the arbor try to pull the arbor apart. Even though the force is just above the arbor axis, the arbor is an extremely strong support system. It is also leveraged against the frame by a robust barrel lug. The same forces on the upper corner of the square (weaker) Remie frame put more stress on the more open design. The force is concentrated much further away from the center line of the frame and, there is very little material where the plunger passes through the frame.
If the Colt type guns were built correctly, (arbor against the bottom of the arbor hole), the problems folks have with the wedges, loosening arbors etc. wouldn't exsist. These things can only happen because they can. Take away the space (the ability), they can't.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Hawg · November 6, 2015, 01:59 AM

The only brass frame I have is a Remington navy. It started imprinting the cylinder ratchet into the recoil shield. What would stop a Colt design from doing that?

45 Dragoon · November 6, 2015, 10:25 AM

Hey Hawg, my brass Remie did the same thing. The Remington relies on a flat surface to act as a bearing with the ratchet teeth cut into it . It works OK on the steel frame, not so well on the brass frame.
The Colt design incorporates a raised bearing surface for the rear of the cylinder to ride against. They carried this idea throughout the S.A. line. The Mod. P uses a recess which in effect, does the same thing.
This condition can happen to the open top as well and the reason is too much clearance for the cylinder to hammer away like a slide hammer. This brings us right back to the short arbor thing (get it fixed you guys!!). A tight barrel/cylinder clearance should be maintained to keep fore and aft cylinder movement to a minimum ( like .0015"-.002"). That makes it tough to generate enough force to damage the frame, cylinder or barrel (even with a pure max load diet).

The Remie suffers because of the same thing. The larger the barrel/cylinder clearance, the faster the damage. To solve the problem for the Remies would be to install a bushing (a la Colt) in the front of the cylinder. This would allow you to then set and maintain a close barrel/cylinder gap (since there is no bbl/cyl contact). It would also of course shield the base pin from fouling and increase (tremendously) run time.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Hawg · November 6, 2015, 12:26 PM

Well that makes sense. Sometimes it seems like the more I learn the less I know.

45 Dragoon · November 6, 2015, 01:18 PM

Ha!! Thanks but alot of this is conjecture (I'm learning too!!) with the brasser. The brass may indeed prove to be an unacceptable material for a "long term" "normal load" frame. I know the setup works with steel, the test will shed light on the suitability of brass. I am confident that the tighter tolerances will allow it to hold up better than without, but for how long?

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Hawg · November 6, 2015, 03:16 PM

I wish they would make them out of red brass like the originals. It would be interesting to know if they would hold up under full loads. I'm thinking the .36's would but .44's wouldn't is why they never made any brass .44's.

Smokin'Joe · November 6, 2015, 08:16 PM

Mike, There was a post a few years ago that described how to strengthen a brass frame revolver. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354846 Check out Post # 20. I took the advise offered and modified it slightly by securing the shim to the frame with pins instead of solder. My fantasy 1851 .44 cal is one of my best shooters.

45 Dragoon · November 6, 2015, 10:35 PM

Thanks SmokinJoe,
I like your Mod. I assume it's not permanent and is removable?
The pin setup seems the way to go.

Good stuff.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Smokin'Joe · November 6, 2015, 11:49 PM

Yes, the shim is removable. That way an unmodified cylinder can be used.

45 Dragoon · November 7, 2015, 01:38 AM

Gotcha. That's why I like your Mod. Did you fix your arbor too? I see your safety notch is filled in.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

Smokin'Joe · November 7, 2015, 09:54 AM

Yes, the arbor is a perfect fit. I followed the Pettifogger Tuning instructions when I bought this Cabela's special for $120 a few years ago. Barrel to cylinder gap is .004". As for the solid face hammer that's my modification.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=607779

November 5, 2015, 08:34 AM	#1
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Question for 45 Dragoon or anyone else who knows the answer I have a brass frame for a 1851 navy and the arbor is really loose. Does anyone have a cure for a loose arbor? The pin that goes over the arbor in the back of the frame under the hammer has been replaced with a very small screw. I can unscrew the arbor and take it right out of the frame. JB Weld has been tried and i came loose in 7 shots. Will locktite work better? I probally would only use 20 grains or less of powder. __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

November 5, 2015, 11:04 AM	#3
foolzrushn Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2015 Location: middle of the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 396	What DD4life said..... and also I think it might be a tough job. You would probably need to have the brazing done with the barrel and cylinder in place, to hold the arbor straight. They might even want to fab a tight fitting rod to keep the barrel/cylinder alignment in place. Different metals cool at different rates and can move if not held in place. They would need to work through the hammer slot for the first tack, to hold things in place. Then remove the barrel/cylinder to access the arbor on the front of the recoil shield. The recoil ring(??) would probably be involved and need to be reformed. All this without melting away too much brass and still getting the steel arbor hot enough to braze. This is almost in the realm of a custom jewelry maker with a tiny torch. What would it cost? Brazing would be a durable fix, machining an oversized arbor (the part in the brass) might work.....but Cabelas has a new one for $200 and you would have spare parts. Good luck. __________________ If you feel that you're pretty important...you should think about your significance to the Universe....and re-evaluate ! certified 'soap welder'

November 5, 2015, 01:03 PM	#4
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Get a replacement frame off of Gunbroker and turn the old frame into wall art. Auction # 519989778 __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

November 5, 2015, 03:08 PM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Fingers has the right idea I have tried drilling down through the frame and arbor and putting in a locking screw. Drilling the locking pin whole larger. Loctite. a JB Weld equivalent which my mechanic says was better than JB Weld. silver soldering the arbor into the frame. Replacing the arbor with a new one. All the profanity I can think of. I have never been able to permanently tighten a loose arbor in a brass frame revolver. Even replacing the frame is not all beer and skittles since you might have trouble finding one which will fit. That brings us to my suggestion which I think is an improvement over Fingers'. ;o) Part out the revolver selling the stuff on eVilbay. You will very likely get enough for the parts to buy a brand new revolver when Cabela's puts them on sale. Assuming the stuff is in good condition, the barrel is worth 75.00, the cylinder is worth 50.00 (Make sure to take the nipples out and then turn them back in hand tight. People like that.) Triggerguard, backstrap and grip should fetch 40.00. All of the innards and screws are worth 25.00. You might actually get enough to buy a steel one. No offense intended, Fingers. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 5, 2015, 06:05 PM	#6
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	Hang it on the wall or sell it for parts on ebay. Take the proceeds and buy another in steel and use the leftover for more ammo. __________________ “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” - Job 38:3

November 5, 2015, 09:00 AM	#2
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	no loctite won't hold up either. Is the hole in the frame wallowed out? If so not much can be done, especially at the home level Two things that may work. Have a machine shop permanently braze the arbor in. Or if the arbor hole in frame is still tight. possibly drill the pin hole slightly larger and install a new hardened pin. which could be almost impossible because the screw threads from the screw may have already made the hole to big already good luck

November 5, 2015, 06:17 PM	#7
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	yeah I'll scrap the idea of trying to tighten it __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

November 5, 2015, 07:33 PM	#8
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	There ya go!! Lol! Just saw this post! Probably the best thing to do with a brass frame revolver is to correct the arbor problem right off the bat. (Of course that's the best thing to do with ANY open top!!) I'm getting ready to set up a brass frame to be used with max.loads as a test. My thoughts are, just as a steel frame will eat wedges if not set up, so will a softer frame (brass) deform if it is allowed to. Any time you have space in the transmission of a shock wave, the two or more parts will beat each other to failure. With a brass frame being softer than its steel counter part, it's no wonder it will shoot loose if not set up properly. When you think about it, it's a must for the brasser to be set up to deal with the stress of firing. My prediction is that a properly "fixed" brasser will handel full loads just as a steel frame will. There will be a count of shots fired along with load info kept for the "test". Mike www.goonsgunworks.com

November 6, 2015, 12:29 AM	#11
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Hawg, Because the arbor is stronger than the Remie frame. I always tell folks that but they keep repeating the same old . . . . . line. The only frame I've ever bent was a brass Remie and it was while I was loading obviously too big of balls. The same balls in the brass Colt type resulted in a loaded gun not a bent or pulled or anything else. The linear forces put on the arbor try to pull the arbor apart. Even though the force is just above the arbor axis, the arbor is an extremely strong support system. It is also leveraged against the frame by a robust barrel lug. The same forces on the upper corner of the square (weaker) Remie frame put more stress on the more open design. The force is concentrated much further away from the center line of the frame and, there is very little material where the plunger passes through the frame. If the Colt type guns were built correctly, (arbor against the bottom of the arbor hole), the problems folks have with the wedges, loosening arbors etc. wouldn't exsist. These things can only happen because they can. Take away the space (the ability), they can't. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com Last edited by 45 Dragoon; November 6, 2015 at 12:48 AM.

November 6, 2015, 01:59 AM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	The only brass frame I have is a Remington navy. It started imprinting the cylinder ratchet into the recoil shield. What would stop a Colt design from doing that?

November 6, 2015, 10:25 AM	#13
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Hey Hawg, my brass Remie did the same thing. The Remington relies on a flat surface to act as a bearing with the ratchet teeth cut into it . It works OK on the steel frame, not so well on the brass frame. The Colt design incorporates a raised bearing surface for the rear of the cylinder to ride against. They carried this idea throughout the S.A. line. The Mod. P uses a recess which in effect, does the same thing. This condition can happen to the open top as well and the reason is too much clearance for the cylinder to hammer away like a slide hammer. This brings us right back to the short arbor thing (get it fixed you guys!!). A tight barrel/cylinder clearance should be maintained to keep fore and aft cylinder movement to a minimum ( like .0015"-.002"). That makes it tough to generate enough force to damage the frame, cylinder or barrel (even with a pure max load diet). The Remie suffers because of the same thing. The larger the barrel/cylinder clearance, the faster the damage. To solve the problem for the Remies would be to install a bushing (a la Colt) in the front of the cylinder. This would allow you to then set and maintain a close barrel/cylinder gap (since there is no bbl/cyl contact). It would also of course shield the base pin from fouling and increase (tremendously) run time. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com Last edited by 45 Dragoon; November 6, 2015 at 10:51 AM.

November 6, 2015, 12:26 PM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Well that makes sense. Sometimes it seems like the more I learn the less I know.

November 6, 2015, 01:18 PM	#15
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Ha!! Thanks but alot of this is conjecture (I'm learning too!!) with the brasser. The brass may indeed prove to be an unacceptable material for a "long term" "normal load" frame. I know the setup works with steel, the test will shed light on the suitability of brass. I am confident that the tighter tolerances will allow it to hold up better than without, but for how long? Mike www.goonsgunworks.com

November 6, 2015, 03:16 PM	#16
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I wish they would make them out of red brass like the originals. It would be interesting to know if they would hold up under full loads. I'm thinking the .36's would but .44's wouldn't is why they never made any brass .44's.

November 6, 2015, 08:16 PM	#17
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 211	Mike, There was a post a few years ago that described how to strengthen a brass frame revolver. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354846 Check out Post # 20. I took the advise offered and modified it slightly by securing the shim to the frame with pins instead of solder. My fantasy 1851 .44 cal is one of my best shooters. Last edited by Smokin'Joe; November 6, 2015 at 08:52 PM.

November 6, 2015, 10:35 PM	#18
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks SmokinJoe, I like your Mod. I assume it's not permanent and is removable? The pin setup seems the way to go. Good stuff. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com

November 6, 2015, 11:49 PM	#19
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 211	Yes, the shim is removable. That way an unmodified cylinder can be used.

November 7, 2015, 01:38 AM	#20
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Gotcha. That's why I like your Mod. Did you fix your arbor too? I see your safety notch is filled in. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com

November 7, 2015, 09:54 AM	#21
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 211	Yes, the arbor is a perfect fit. I followed the Pettifogger Tuning instructions when I bought this Cabela's special for $120 a few years ago. Barrel to cylinder gap is .004". As for the solid face hammer that's my modification. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=607779 Last edited by Smokin'Joe; November 7, 2015 at 10:05 AM.