1894 Winchester Bullet Choice

BBarn · January 16, 2018, 05:54 PM

A few months back several guys were shooting a few rounds thru an old Winchester 1894. Some of the ammo was jacketed, other was cast lead. One of the shooters recommended using primarily cast ammo in the gun (and go light on the use of jacketed). Was he being overly conservative, or is it best to limit the old nickel steel Winchester barrels to non-jacketed bullets?

Edit: Caliber is 30WCF (30-30 Winchester)

Scorch · January 16, 2018, 07:00 PM

The older steels used in BP cartridges was easy to wear with jacketed bullets, but the nickel steel is very hard and should not suffer with jacketed bullets. I have an 1894 made in 1895 that still has pretty good rifling for a 122 year old rifle.

ligonierbill · January 16, 2018, 07:06 PM

Jacketed bullets will not harm your gun. That said, I shoot cast bullets for practice just because they're cheaper. Rolling my own, of course. The 30-30 was a smokeless cartridge from the get go, but the original ammo would have had cast bullets. I don't know when the first jacketed bullets were loaded. Maybe someone here can enlighten us.

Correction: The original loads (according to Wiki) were 160 grain "metal patch" bullets, i.e. early jacketed bullets.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · January 16, 2018, 07:07 PM

Concerning 1894 nickel steel barrels the fellow suggesting cast is correct. I would also suggest pistol powder use in regards to home-reloading.

BBarn · January 16, 2018, 07:13 PM

Do I get to pick the answer?

Obviously there isn't general agreement on this. I guess I'll do some more checking and also see if I can find any pistol powder loads.

The cast bullets used were driven with Trail Boss, and were very light.

doofus47 · January 16, 2018, 07:39 PM

SureshotMcgee:

Quote:

I would also suggest pistol powder use in regards to home-reloading.

Why? I'm asking out of equal parts ignorance and curiosity as I am just scratching the reloading surface and I don't own an 1894 rifle either.

Dufus · January 16, 2018, 09:20 PM

My best friend with rifle calibers and cast bullets is Red Dot.

Example: with 150 gr cast bullet, I use 10 gr of Red Dot in 308 Win and 30-06. Outstanding target load and good for rabbits, squirrel, turtles and paper.

If you want a good big game load, I suggest Alliant 2400.

Pathfinder45 · January 16, 2018, 09:57 PM

If it's a really old rifle, it would probably be a good idea to have it inspected by a gunsmith or other well-qualified person to be sure it is in good working condition. If it's in spec, it should be good with any new factory ammo. It was made for jacketed bullets. If you reload for it, don't go for maximum loads or try to out-do the factory ammo. Instead, go a little easier on it and go for accuracy.

BBarn · January 16, 2018, 10:07 PM

It's an early model, about 1900, so I believe it pre-dates jacketed bullets. Hence the question.

BBarn · January 16, 2018, 10:22 PM

After checking a little further, I see the jacketed bullet was invented in the late 1880s. And according to Wikipedia both Winchester and UMC initially offered metal patched bullets in their 30 WCF loadings (not that wiki is always right).

FrankenMauser · January 17, 2018, 01:27 AM

.30 WCF / .30-30 was always intended to use smokeless powder and jacketed bullets, and the barrels in the Winchesters were up to the task.

Don't worry about it.
If you don't want to shoot cast bullets, don't.

Art Eatman · January 17, 2018, 11:12 AM

The cartridge began life with jacketed bullets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

eastbank · January 17, 2018, 12:28 PM

more 30-30 Winchester 94,s were ruined by over cleaning(rod down the muzzle end) and corrorive primers than shooting jacketed bullet thru them. I have seven older 94,s that were shot a lot with jacketed bullets from 1903 to 1927 and they all have ex bores, they were-are hunting rifles and not target rifles fired thousands of times at paper targets. eastbank.

Paul B. · January 17, 2018, 04:50 PM

These days the 30-30 is more of a fun gun than serious hunter although in my early days of hunting the 30-30 was used quite a bit. Killed my first deer with an old M94 made in 1911 using some very old Winchester ammo with what were I believe the old cupronickel bullets. No matter, the deer died and I was at the ripe old age of 11. The year was 1949.

As I said, the 30-30 is more of a fun gun so I shoot mostly cast bullets in the several 30-30's I have. Two M94's, circa 1911 and 1981, two M64's 1938 and 1951, an M54 in 30-30 and one Marlin 336 Texan. A 115 gr. cast bullet over 5.0 to 10.0 gr. of Unique make nice plinking loads or great for harassing jack rabbits and coyotes called in.
Early on I used cast bullets duplicating full power loads and have taken 17 deer with the load. Just the Lyman #311291 and a factory duplicating load from any of the manuals worked just fine at the relatively short range deer were taken where I lived.
Ss far as jacketed bullets harming the barrel of an early M94? I would not worry overmuch unless you were trying to copy TV's rifleman. As was said, damaged rifling from overzealous cleaning and corrosive priming did in many of the barrels on the older rifles. I liked IMR 3031 for making the full power cast bullet loads.
Paul B.

Pathfinder45 · January 17, 2018, 10:49 PM

The 30-30 has got to be one of the most underestimated and disrespected cartridges there are. Meanwhile, there are all kinds of 7.62x39 fans that will tell you that their AK/SKS or whatever, is the equal of a 30-30. "Well, at 200 yards.....", as they blaze away doing a 30 round mag-dump at 20-30 yards or so. What a bunch of baloney. On the other hand, I've got a lot of respect for the 270 Winchester, which is seemingly much superior to an iron sighted 30-30. And yet, I'm finding that most of the time, it's the 30-30 carbine that I'm bringing along to the woods. Mine wears a Lyman tang aperture sight and it just plain hits where it's aimed. There are plenty of good of good bullets for reloading. Perhaps the most iconic is the now discontinued Silvertip. I have found myself haggling with the vendors at the gunshows over some vintage Silvertip ammo in severely degraded condition just to dismantle it for the bullets and throw the rest away. But then I must find some correctly stamped Super-X cases along with the correct vintage boxes, and then.....

Scorch · January 18, 2018, 01:09 AM

Quote:

The 30-30 has got to be one of the most underestimated and disrespected cartridges there are

I agree 100% with that statement. When it was first introduced, the 30-30 and its smokeless brethren obsoleted trainloads of black powder cartridges overnight. Shoot it proudly!

FrankenMauser · January 18, 2018, 03:03 AM

Pathfinder...
I love you, man.
You said it all.

But, of course, I must expound:
I grew up with .270 Win (which I still love), .220 Swift, .30-06, .300 WM, .338 WM, various Weatherby cartridges, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 WM, .450 Nitro, and more...
My life was built around "bigger is better" and/or "faster is better". (More "bigger and faster" than anything else.)
I do own a few of those, along with comparables...

But when I developed a mind of my own (and an appreciation for my "slow" 2,790 fps .270 Win load that's lights-out precise), everything changed.
My three most favorite cartridges at this time are .30-30, .307 Win, and .444 Marlin. They're all lever-gun cartridges, and that does come back to my personality a bit, but they're more than anyone should ever need for hunting 99% of the world's game. ...Or even punching paper, for that matter.

If I can't get it done with .30-30, it means I'm too far away and/or not trying hard enough.
The .307 came about simply because I got a very good deal on a .30-30 barrel that had a .307 reamer shoved into it, and put the rest of the rifle together from the parts box. It's a theoretical upgrade from .30-30, but not by much. I love it more for the fact that it's an obsolete [*fatherless child*], than for the theoretical performance increase. ...And, well, it shoots incredibly well.

If I laid out my top five primary hunting rifles, at least one would be a .30-30.

If I laid out my top five most accurate rifles, at least one would be a .30-30. (And this is a class where my .30-06 has proven itself as being able to repeat 0.330" 5-shot groups!)

.30-30 is no slouch.
Under-appreciated.
Underestimated.
And disrespected.

The only reason I don't want to keep its magic a secret is because I need more 180 gr bullets for the .307 Win, via spill-over!

bamaranger · January 18, 2018, 03:46 AM

For a number of years, before EVERYBODY started collecting brass (either to load, or for scrap) I used to haunt a nearby public range and come away with gobs of spent cases. Prior deer season, one of the most common cases I'd collect was.......30-30. I suspect most of them were shot from Marlin 336's, as a Marlin and a 4x Tasco was not an uncommon rig here. The Marlin has always been easier to scope ( and to clean). Those days are done. Scrappers are competing for brass, and I suspect more folks are reloading, or hoping to. Also, the price point poly rifle with high intensity cartridges is now the most affordable deer rig.

I've had two M94's over the years, hunted the first one a fair amount. Always valued it for its ease of carry, never gave too much thought to the cartridge, but it always did the job.

Jack O'Conner · January 18, 2018, 08:36 AM

Not everyone wants to buy a plastic stocked bolt action rifle. Many deer hunters know that a 30-30 carbine will meet their needs while hunting within forests and foothills. Companies that build new production 30-30 rifles include: Mossberg, Marlin, Winchester, Thompson Center, and Rossi.

Jack

kraigwy · January 18, 2018, 09:47 AM

Jacketed bullets are pefectly safe in the Model '94, I have a 1925 Made saddle ring carbine that has excellent rifling, and it accurate.

That being said, I like shooting cast bullets. Its a heck of lot cheapr, they are accurate and just as effective for hunting as jacketed bullets as they can befired as the same velocities as jacked bullets.

The same can be said for my 30-40 Krag, Using the orginal weight 220 bullets, I can get the same results from jacketed bullets.

Like I said, I dont shoot lead to save the rifling.

The real difference is the cost of ammo. Since I have plenty of brass, only having to buy powder and primers, my 30-30 ammo cost me $13 cents a round. If I shot jacketed bullets you have to add 30 cents to that cost. ($30 per hundred =.30 cents).

So basicly I can shoot 3 cast bullet loads for the price of one jacketed load.

Time for casting is not really a big deal. Since I use cast bullets in all my handguns it takes nothing to cast a couple hunderd 30 cal bullets during a casting session where I might load 500-1000 38s.

I will confess that I dont buy lead, I'm the guy that got stuck with the job of cleaning out the lead traps at our clubs indoor range.

Often, I trade the lead to a guy who sells cast bullets commerically. Its hard to justify casting when I can trade lead for powder coated or other pre-cast/lube bullets. I just have to open the range so he can clean our our traps.

BBarn · January 18, 2018, 11:04 AM

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. Since I'll probably only shoot a few boxes a year through it, I'll probably use mostly jacketed. The bullets I cast using the 150gr RCBS Cowboy mould work OK, but I would rather use a gas check bullet if I'm going cast. But than means I would need to buy another mould, and gas checks, and casting the bullets themselves. Just doesn't seem worth it to save less than $20 a year over just buying jacketed bullets. Yet, it somehow just seems more fun shoving those cast bullet rounds thru the loading gate of this classic...

Pathfinder45 · January 18, 2018, 01:52 PM

I use both. I'm casting 170 grain bullets from a Lee mold and sizing to .309 while seating the gas check.

Dufus · January 18, 2018, 01:54 PM

You can use your existing Cowboy mold by using plain base gas checks.

I buy my PB gas checks from Sage's OUtdoors and they work fine.

January 16, 2018, 05:54 PM	#1
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	1894 Winchester Bullet Choice A few months back several guys were shooting a few rounds thru an old Winchester 1894. Some of the ammo was jacketed, other was cast lead. One of the shooters recommended using primarily cast ammo in the gun (and go light on the use of jacketed). Was he being overly conservative, or is it best to limit the old nickel steel Winchester barrels to non-jacketed bullets? Edit: Caliber is 30WCF (30-30 Winchester)

January 16, 2018, 07:00 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The older steels used in BP cartridges was easy to wear with jacketed bullets, but the nickel steel is very hard and should not suffer with jacketed bullets. I have an 1894 made in 1895 that still has pretty good rifling for a 122 year old rifle. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 17, 2018, 01:27 AM	#11
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	.30 WCF / .30-30 was always intended to use smokeless powder and jacketed bullets, and the barrels in the Winchesters were up to the task. Don't worry about it. If you don't want to shoot cast bullets, don't. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 17, 2018, 04:50 PM	#14
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,801	These days the 30-30 is more of a fun gun than serious hunter although in my early days of hunting the 30-30 was used quite a bit. Killed my first deer with an old M94 made in 1911 using some very old Winchester ammo with what were I believe the old cupronickel bullets. No matter, the deer died and I was at the ripe old age of 11. The year was 1949. As I said, the 30-30 is more of a fun gun so I shoot mostly cast bullets in the several 30-30's I have. Two M94's, circa 1911 and 1981, two M64's 1938 and 1951, an M54 in 30-30 and one Marlin 336 Texan. A 115 gr. cast bullet over 5.0 to 10.0 gr. of Unique make nice plinking loads or great for harassing jack rabbits and coyotes called in. Early on I used cast bullets duplicating full power loads and have taken 17 deer with the load. Just the Lyman #311291 and a factory duplicating load from any of the manuals worked just fine at the relatively short range deer were taken where I lived. Ss far as jacketed bullets harming the barrel of an early M94? I would not worry overmuch unless you were trying to copy TV's rifleman. As was said, damaged rifling from overzealous cleaning and corrosive priming did in many of the barrels on the older rifles. I liked IMR 3031 for making the full power cast bullet loads. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

January 18, 2018, 03:03 AM	#17
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Pathfinder... I love you, man. You said it all. But, of course, I must expound: I grew up with .270 Win (which I still love), .220 Swift, .30-06, .300 WM, .338 WM, various Weatherby cartridges, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 WM, .450 Nitro, and more... My life was built around "bigger is better" and/or "faster is better". (More "bigger and faster" than anything else.) I do own a few of those, along with comparables... But when I developed a mind of my own (and an appreciation for my "slow" 2,790 fps .270 Win load that's lights-out precise), everything changed. My three most favorite cartridges at this time are .30-30, .307 Win, and .444 Marlin. They're all lever-gun cartridges, and that does come back to my personality a bit, but they're more than anyone should ever need for hunting 99% of the world's game. ...Or even punching paper, for that matter. If I can't get it done with .30-30, it means I'm too far away and/or not trying hard enough. The .307 came about simply because I got a very good deal on a .30-30 barrel that had a .307 reamer shoved into it, and put the rest of the rifle together from the parts box. It's a theoretical upgrade from .30-30, but not by much. I love it more for the fact that it's an obsolete [fatherless child], than for the theoretical performance increase. ...And, well, it shoots incredibly well. If I laid out my top five primary hunting rifles, at least one would be a .30-30. If I laid out my top five most accurate rifles, at least one would be a .30-30. (And this is a class where my .30-06 has proven itself as being able to repeat 0.330" 5-shot groups!) .30-30 is no slouch. Under-appreciated. Underestimated. And disrespected. The only reason I don't want to keep its magic a secret is because I need more 180 gr bullets for the .307 Win, via spill-over! __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 16, 2018, 07:06 PM	#3
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	Jacketed bullets will not harm your gun. That said, I shoot cast bullets for practice just because they're cheaper. Rolling my own, of course. The 30-30 was a smokeless cartridge from the get go, but the original ammo would have had cast bullets. I don't know when the first jacketed bullets were loaded. Maybe someone here can enlighten us. Correction: The original loads (according to Wiki) were 160 grain "metal patch" bullets, i.e. early jacketed bullets.

January 16, 2018, 07:07 PM	#4
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Concerning 1894 nickel steel barrels the fellow suggesting cast is correct. I would also suggest pistol powder use in regards to home-reloading.

January 16, 2018, 07:13 PM	#5
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Do I get to pick the answer? Obviously there isn't general agreement on this. I guess I'll do some more checking and also see if I can find any pistol powder loads. The cast bullets used were driven with Trail Boss, and were very light.

January 16, 2018, 09:20 PM	#7
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	My best friend with rifle calibers and cast bullets is Red Dot. Example: with 150 gr cast bullet, I use 10 gr of Red Dot in 308 Win and 30-06. Outstanding target load and good for rabbits, squirrel, turtles and paper. If you want a good big game load, I suggest Alliant 2400.

January 16, 2018, 09:57 PM	#8
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	If it's a really old rifle, it would probably be a good idea to have it inspected by a gunsmith or other well-qualified person to be sure it is in good working condition. If it's in spec, it should be good with any new factory ammo. It was made for jacketed bullets. If you reload for it, don't go for maximum loads or try to out-do the factory ammo. Instead, go a little easier on it and go for accuracy.

January 16, 2018, 10:07 PM	#9
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	It's an early model, about 1900, so I believe it pre-dates jacketed bullets. Hence the question.

January 16, 2018, 10:22 PM	#10
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	After checking a little further, I see the jacketed bullet was invented in the late 1880s. And according to Wikipedia both Winchester and UMC initially offered metal patched bullets in their 30 WCF loadings (not that wiki is always right).

January 17, 2018, 11:12 AM	#12
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The cartridge began life with jacketed bullets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

January 17, 2018, 12:28 PM	#13
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	more 30-30 Winchester 94,s were ruined by over cleaning(rod down the muzzle end) and corrorive primers than shooting jacketed bullet thru them. I have seven older 94,s that were shot a lot with jacketed bullets from 1903 to 1927 and they all have ex bores, they were-are hunting rifles and not target rifles fired thousands of times at paper targets. eastbank.

January 17, 2018, 10:49 PM	#15
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	The 30-30 has got to be one of the most underestimated and disrespected cartridges there are. Meanwhile, there are all kinds of 7.62x39 fans that will tell you that their AK/SKS or whatever, is the equal of a 30-30. "Well, at 200 yards.....", as they blaze away doing a 30 round mag-dump at 20-30 yards or so. What a bunch of baloney. On the other hand, I've got a lot of respect for the 270 Winchester, which is seemingly much superior to an iron sighted 30-30. And yet, I'm finding that most of the time, it's the 30-30 carbine that I'm bringing along to the woods. Mine wears a Lyman tang aperture sight and it just plain hits where it's aimed. There are plenty of good of good bullets for reloading. Perhaps the most iconic is the now discontinued Silvertip. I have found myself haggling with the vendors at the gunshows over some vintage Silvertip ammo in severely degraded condition just to dismantle it for the bullets and throw the rest away. But then I must find some correctly stamped Super-X cases along with the correct vintage boxes, and then.....

January 18, 2018, 03:46 AM	#18
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	30-30 For a number of years, before EVERYBODY started collecting brass (either to load, or for scrap) I used to haunt a nearby public range and come away with gobs of spent cases. Prior deer season, one of the most common cases I'd collect was.......30-30. I suspect most of them were shot from Marlin 336's, as a Marlin and a 4x Tasco was not an uncommon rig here. The Marlin has always been easier to scope ( and to clean). Those days are done. Scrappers are competing for brass, and I suspect more folks are reloading, or hoping to. Also, the price point poly rifle with high intensity cartridges is now the most affordable deer rig. I've had two M94's over the years, hunted the first one a fair amount. Always valued it for its ease of carry, never gave too much thought to the cartridge, but it always did the job.

January 18, 2018, 08:36 AM	#19
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Manatee County, Florida Posts: 1,976	Not everyone wants to buy a plastic stocked bolt action rifle. Many deer hunters know that a 30-30 carbine will meet their needs while hunting within forests and foothills. Companies that build new production 30-30 rifles include: Mossberg, Marlin, Winchester, Thompson Center, and Rossi. Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

January 18, 2018, 09:47 AM	#20
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Jacketed bullets are pefectly safe in the Model '94, I have a 1925 Made saddle ring carbine that has excellent rifling, and it accurate. That being said, I like shooting cast bullets. Its a heck of lot cheapr, they are accurate and just as effective for hunting as jacketed bullets as they can befired as the same velocities as jacked bullets. The same can be said for my 30-40 Krag, Using the orginal weight 220 bullets, I can get the same results from jacketed bullets. Like I said, I dont shoot lead to save the rifling. The real difference is the cost of ammo. Since I have plenty of brass, only having to buy powder and primers, my 30-30 ammo cost me $13 cents a round. If I shot jacketed bullets you have to add 30 cents to that cost. ($30 per hundred =.30 cents). So basicly I can shoot 3 cast bullet loads for the price of one jacketed load. Time for casting is not really a big deal. Since I use cast bullets in all my handguns it takes nothing to cast a couple hunderd 30 cal bullets during a casting session where I might load 500-1000 38s. I will confess that I dont buy lead, I'm the guy that got stuck with the job of cleaning out the lead traps at our clubs indoor range. Often, I trade the lead to a guy who sells cast bullets commerically. Its hard to justify casting when I can trade lead for powder coated or other pre-cast/lube bullets. I just have to open the range so he can clean our our traps. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

January 18, 2018, 11:04 AM	#21
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. Since I'll probably only shoot a few boxes a year through it, I'll probably use mostly jacketed. The bullets I cast using the 150gr RCBS Cowboy mould work OK, but I would rather use a gas check bullet if I'm going cast. But than means I would need to buy another mould, and gas checks, and casting the bullets themselves. Just doesn't seem worth it to save less than $20 a year over just buying jacketed bullets. Yet, it somehow just seems more fun shoving those cast bullet rounds thru the loading gate of this classic...

January 18, 2018, 01:52 PM	#22
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I use both. I'm casting 170 grain bullets from a Lee mold and sizing to .309 while seating the gas check.

January 18, 2018, 01:54 PM	#23
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	You can use your existing Cowboy mold by using plain base gas checks. I buy my PB gas checks from Sage's OUtdoors and they work fine.