US Army sees urgent need for 'longer-range' infantry weapon

SR420 · August 4, 2008, 04:55 PM

The US Army is requesting more funds to buy modified M14 rifles to meet an urgent operational need.

I bet Ron Smith and company are going to be busier than ever very soon

azredhawk44 · August 4, 2008, 05:00 PM

Funny how those irrelevant derelict M14 rifles just never seem to fade away into the mists of time like they are "supposed" to do.

SR420 · August 4, 2008, 05:02 PM

To the naysayers I say . . . I told you so!

daveydoo · August 4, 2008, 05:15 PM

I thought the m14 was a POS when it compare to today tech....I am so glad they are wrong. It is one of my favorites.

eldogg4life · August 4, 2008, 05:22 PM

One of my top 3 rifles ever...
Well that I have fired personally.
It is not affective in all instances but it has its place.

nate45 · August 4, 2008, 05:25 PM

I have an MForgery, but I think I would prefer my .308 or .30-06 for serious fighting.

Quote:

NO SHTF threads.
NO TEOTWAWKI topics.
NO ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE scenarios.

Ah come on a couple of zombie stories won't hurt us.

Davis · August 4, 2008, 05:28 PM

SR420, you carry the torch well across boards.

Davis

SR420 · August 4, 2008, 05:31 PM

Good news spreads fast

Bart Noir · August 4, 2008, 06:28 PM

The full article says that the funding is for bipods, stocks, and scopes etc.

So I guess this isn't the big windfall for Springfield Armory that it first seemed.

Bart Noir

SR420 · August 4, 2008, 06:32 PM

Many have tagged the M14 a stop gap rifle.

The stop gap label can be officially removed. The M14 is no longer just a stop gap.

With just a little help and enhanced technology the private sector will be able to produce brand new lighter weight M14s from scratch
at a lower cost than any of the new and improved .308 ARs currently available and new .308 auto loaders not quite ready for prime time.

Even without a change from the top, the private sector will soon be making brand new M14s from scratch.
The private sector embraced the M14 years ago because it's a money maker and the US military keeps using
the M14 because the old ones are paid for, it works and it responds extremely well to low cost modernization techniques

A Smith Enterprise, Inc. M21A5 was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008.
The modernized M14 fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.

kristop64089 · August 4, 2008, 06:38 PM

Good to know that my favorite rifle will live on.(And the best looking too)

overkill556x45 · August 4, 2008, 06:50 PM

I saw M14's fielded as I left my AO in 2005. I won't say what unit was carrying them (OPSEC and all that), but it wasn't SF. Almost every designated marksman had one.

That said, my 'Guard infantry unit has yet to get rid of M16A2's. My issued rifle says "COLT MANUFACTURING, MODEL AR-15" on the lower receiver (which is now mainly silver) and you can see where "AUTO" was scratched off and "BURST" was stenciled in under it. I mention this because I know a lot of people will read that Jane's article and go "Wow, we're getting M14's soon!". I guess it depends on your definition of "soon". I have no doubt that some units may get more M14's, but most of us will still have M16 series weapons for many more years. Heck, I saw M16A1's still in service in 2004. We will never be rid of the black rifle...at least until Colt has the patent for M14's.

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.

Arabia · August 4, 2008, 07:14 PM

The article does not mention that the military is going to replace their M16s for M14s or that they are going to make new M14s. What the articles states is that the military wants allocate more money to update older M14s to use them in specialized roles, for example Designated Marksman, and light sniper rifle. The M16 and M4 will remain the standard issue rifle of our armed forces. In addition the ARMY and Marines are going to an automatic SR25(modernized AR10) as a full time sniper rifle to replace the bolt action M24.

Davis · August 4, 2008, 07:34 PM

Of course, the Army has always testing many different firearms, from the Evans carbine to the Hopkins and Allen Single Action Army, from the 1941 Johnson to the Berdan I.

Just because it was tested means nothing.

That is not to say, of course, that the Smith rifle is bad, merely that being tested means little.

Davis

TPAW · August 4, 2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

US Army sees urgent need for 'longer-range' infantry weapon

It's called air support, artillery and an accurate fire mission. Been there done that..........No point expending young bodies as cannon fodder when other means exist.

SR420 · August 4, 2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Arabia ... the ARMY and Marines are going to an automatic SR25(modernized AR10) as a full time sniper rifle to replace the bolt action M24.

The Marines are having growing numbers of the M39EMR ~ Enhanced Marksman Rifle built up for them.
I guess they will support the SASS.

hoytinak · August 4, 2008, 07:53 PM

They've seen the need for longer-range infantry weapons for a while now....I carried a M14 in '03 in Afghanistan as my main rifle with a M4/M203 slung on my back as a secondary weapon....man I hated those mountains carrying a full combat load for both.

**44 AMP** · August 4, 2008, 08:23 PM

Into military planners fantasies?

Many years ago, certain individuals in power decided that a long range rifle wasn't needed, that the intermediate range assault rifle round combined with the .30 cal GPMG would be enough. The transition started during Vietnam, and has continued through today with the M4, whose short barrel handiness has lessened the long range effectiveness (such as it had) of the 5.56mm round.

So now, we again have some folks in the military who recognize the usefulness of the long range rifle. Perhaps eventually we may rediscover the usefulness of general marksmanship as well, but I'm not holding my breath.

Davis · August 4, 2008, 08:30 PM

Yeow, a fellow would be lucky to get a chin weld on that rifle, much less cheek. It makes an SVD look positively cozy!

Davis

hoytinak · August 4, 2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Yeow, a fellow would be lucky to get a chin weld on that rifle, much less cheek.

The cheek weld and LOP on that stock is fully adjustable...there's plenty of room to make it nice and comfy for ya.

dm1333 · August 4, 2008, 08:50 PM

If you look at the butt pad you will see a lever crossing the second hole down from the top. You pivot that and you can adjust the cheek plate up and down to fit. With an ACOG reflex sight I actually leave the cheek plate all the way down and it works just fine for me. That Sage stock makes it a heavy SOB though.

Deaf Smith · August 4, 2008, 08:58 PM

Right now 10 percent of the riflemen in the military are sharpshooters or snipers (sounds like the Russian Army in WWII!)

This is a huge read! "The Sniper Revolution".

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hti.../20080731.aspx

No more Vietnam spray-n-pray. We are going back to where we were around pre WW2.

Now personaly I like the AR alot. But we need at least some way of mixing longer range shooting.

Davis · August 4, 2008, 09:08 PM

Pretty silly not to actually photograph the rifle in a condition which allows the scope to function.

Davis

Jimro · August 4, 2008, 09:24 PM

The Army is not buying more M-14's. What the Army is buying more of is Sage stocks, Harris bipods, and LaRue mounts, or other RFI equipment to make the m14 more applicable as a specialty long range rifle for SDM's.

The M110 SASS is a fine weapon, but is not a replacement for the m24, at least not yet. The m14 is MTOE slotted for SDM's.

Jimro

SR420 · August 4, 2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Jimro

The M110 SASS is a fine weapon

Not from the post and reports I have read, most are not happy with the system.

August 4, 2008, 04:55 PM	#1
SR420 Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 3,336	US Army sees urgent need for 'longer-range' infantry weapon The US Army is requesting more funds to buy modified M14 rifles to meet an urgent operational need. I bet Ron Smith and company are going to be busier than ever very soon __________________ The History and Development of the M14 EBR

August 4, 2008, 05:02 PM	#3
SR420 Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 3,336	To the naysayers I say . . . I told you so! __________________ The History and Development of the M14 EBR

August 4, 2008, 05:15 PM	#4
daveydoo Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2008 Location: AZ where is the rain Posts: 170	I thought the m14 was a POS when it compare to today tech....I am so glad they are wrong. It is one of my favorites. __________________ He that has never suffered extreme adversity knows not the full extent of his own depravation. - Charles Caleb Colton

August 4, 2008, 05:22 PM	#5
eldogg4life Member Join Date: October 24, 2005 Location: The North Pole... Posts: 42	top 3 in my opinion One of my top 3 rifles ever... Well that I have fired personally. It is not affective in all instances but it has its place. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/eldogg4life

August 4, 2008, 05:31 PM	#8
SR420 Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 3,336	Good news spreads fast __________________ The History and Development of the M14 EBR

August 4, 2008, 05:00 PM	#2
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Funny how those irrelevant derelict M14 rifles just never seem to fade away into the mists of time like they are "supposed" to do.

August 4, 2008, 05:28 PM	#7
Davis Junior member Join Date: January 8, 2002 Posts: 675	SR420, you carry the torch well across boards. Davis

August 4, 2008, 06:28 PM	#9
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	The full article says that the funding is for bipods, stocks, and scopes etc. So I guess this isn't the big windfall for Springfield Armory that it first seemed. Bart Noir __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

August 4, 2008, 06:32 PM	#10
SR420 Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 3,336	Many have tagged the M14 a stop gap rifle. The stop gap label can be officially removed. The M14 is no longer just a stop gap. With just a little help and enhanced technology the private sector will be able to produce brand new lighter weight M14s from scratch at a lower cost than any of the new and improved .308 ARs currently available and new .308 auto loaders not quite ready for prime time. Even without a change from the top, the private sector will soon be making brand new M14s from scratch. The private sector embraced the M14 years ago because it's a money maker and the US military keeps using the M14 because the old ones are paid for, it works and it responds extremely well to low cost modernization techniques A Smith Enterprise, Inc. M21A5 was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008. The modernized M14 fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo. __________________ The History and Development of the M14 EBR

August 4, 2008, 06:50 PM	#12
overkill556x45 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 624	I saw M14's fielded as I left my AO in 2005. I won't say what unit was carrying them (OPSEC and all that), but it wasn't SF. Almost every designated marksman had one. That said, my 'Guard infantry unit has yet to get rid of M16A2's. My issued rifle says "COLT MANUFACTURING, MODEL AR-15" on the lower receiver (which is now mainly silver) and you can see where "AUTO" was scratched off and "BURST" was stenciled in under it. I mention this because I know a lot of people will read that Jane's article and go "Wow, we're getting M14's soon!". I guess it depends on your definition of "soon". I have no doubt that some units may get more M14's, but most of us will still have M16 series weapons for many more years. Heck, I saw M16A1's still in service in 2004. We will never be rid of the black rifle...at least until Colt has the patent for M14's. I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.

August 4, 2008, 07:14 PM	#13
Arabia Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Massachusetts, The Bay State Posts: 432	People are reading to much into this article. The article does not mention that the military is going to replace their M16s for M14s or that they are going to make new M14s. What the articles states is that the military wants allocate more money to update older M14s to use them in specialized roles, for example Designated Marksman, and light sniper rifle. The M16 and M4 will remain the standard issue rifle of our armed forces. In addition the ARMY and Marines are going to an automatic SR25(modernized AR10) as a full time sniper rifle to replace the bolt action M24. __________________ -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. Ferris Bueller, from Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

August 4, 2008, 07:34 PM	#14
Davis Junior member Join Date: January 8, 2002 Posts: 675	Of course, the Army has always testing many different firearms, from the Evans carbine to the Hopkins and Allen Single Action Army, from the 1941 Johnson to the Berdan I. Just because it was tested means nothing. That is not to say, of course, that the Smith rifle is bad, merely that being tested means little. Davis

August 4, 2008, 07:53 PM	#17
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	They've seen the need for longer-range infantry weapons for a while now....I carried a M14 in '03 in Afghanistan as my main rifle with a M4/M203 slung on my back as a secondary weapon....man I hated those mountains carrying a full combat load for both.

August 4, 2008, 08:23 PM	#18
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	isn't it odd how reality keeps eventualy intruding Into military planners fantasies? Many years ago, certain individuals in power decided that a long range rifle wasn't needed, that the intermediate range assault rifle round combined with the .30 cal GPMG would be enough. The transition started during Vietnam, and has continued through today with the M4, whose short barrel handiness has lessened the long range effectiveness (such as it had) of the 5.56mm round. So now, we again have some folks in the military who recognize the usefulness of the long range rifle. Perhaps eventually we may rediscover the usefulness of general marksmanship as well, but I'm not holding my breath. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 4, 2008, 08:30 PM	#19
Davis Junior member Join Date: January 8, 2002 Posts: 675	Yeow, a fellow would be lucky to get a chin weld on that rifle, much less cheek. It makes an SVD look positively cozy! Davis

August 4, 2008, 08:50 PM	#21
dm1333 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 401	Davis If you look at the butt pad you will see a lever crossing the second hole down from the top. You pivot that and you can adjust the cheek plate up and down to fit. With an ACOG reflex sight I actually leave the cheek plate all the way down and it works just fine for me. That Sage stock makes it a heavy SOB though.

August 4, 2008, 08:58 PM	#22
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Right now 10 percent of the riflemen in the military are sharpshooters or snipers (sounds like the Russian Army in WWII!) This is a huge read! "The Sniper Revolution". http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hti.../20080731.aspx No more Vietnam spray-n-pray. We are going back to where we were around pre WW2. Now personaly I like the AR alot. But we need at least some way of mixing longer range shooting. __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

August 4, 2008, 09:08 PM	#23
Davis Junior member Join Date: January 8, 2002 Posts: 675	Pretty silly not to actually photograph the rifle in a condition which allows the scope to function. Davis

August 4, 2008, 09:24 PM	#24
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	The Army is not buying more M-14's. What the Army is buying more of is Sage stocks, Harris bipods, and LaRue mounts, or other RFI equipment to make the m14 more applicable as a specialty long range rifle for SDM's. The M110 SASS is a fine weapon, but is not a replacement for the m24, at least not yet. The m14 is MTOE slotted for SDM's. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.