VLD

stagpanther · October 14, 2019, 09:37 AM

It's funny how rarely in the forums anyone mentions Berger bullets as their choice--any particular reason?

hounddawg · October 14, 2019, 09:58 AM

I can always get the SMK's to shoot in every rifle I have ever tried. Both targets shot at 300 yards. Cost for the .223 80 gn's cost is roughly the same with the Bergers costing a penny or two more but they shoot roughly the same for me. These were shot the same day, I shot the SMK's first and adjusted the scope down a bit for the Bergers

1.5 inch X and 3 inch ten rings

cdoc42 · October 14, 2019, 10:42 AM

My experience mimics haunddawg. I find less expensive Hornady and Sierra as accurate as Berger.

stagpanther · October 14, 2019, 10:53 AM

I think because of their complex ogives, center of pressure etc they are a little more demanding of fine-tuning than most other designs--but that's just a theory.

hounddawg · October 14, 2019, 01:53 PM

I am not sure if my gear and talent are enough to see a difference. If I were a benchrest shooter with a custom rifle and normally shot in the .1's an zeros at 100 and in the .3's at 600 and 800 I might be able to tell a difference with Bergers.

Lately when I find a load I tend to stop development and work on technique. I am putting a new rifle together next week and may play with some Bergers and Hornady's for a change of pace

jmr40 · October 14, 2019, 02:39 PM

I've put 300-400 of the 155 and 168 gr 308's downrange. I can get Lapua Scenar's for about the same price and I like them better. And for significantly less Hornady ELD-M's are just as good with my shooting skills. If the Bergers are better I'm not good enough to take advantage of it.

stagpanther · October 14, 2019, 02:56 PM

Bergers are funny birds--I've used the same charge weights and they may disperse big time depending on jump to lands--and it isn't always the shorter jumps that yield the better results. I agree eld's are great all-around bullets for good results. I bought some of their solid-tipped eld's and had a hard time finding the sweet spot with them though--and they are very expensive. Also interested in Nosler's new "game changers."

Don't hear much about Swift bullets either--but I've had some great results with their sciroccos/

hounddawg · October 14, 2019, 03:25 PM

odd that you made this thread Stag. Earlier today I was contemplating buying a box of Bergers to try in the new build after reading this article

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2019/...6br-load-data/

seems like the the vanilla 6BR 105 Bergers and 108 ELDM's are the schnitzel. I might come off my wallet and buy a box tonight

**Unclenick** · October 14, 2019, 04:53 PM

Long ago someone put up measurements made with the Vern Juenke ultrasonic device that showed Bergers had better mass symmetry than most other makes. But the price puts folks off, the vast majority of whom are not shooting precisely enough for the advantage to be clear to them. And the secant ogive Berger VLD's need extra care to get good axial alignment in the bore (good cartridge concentricity, aka low runout). The newer Berger hybrid ogive design is supposed to overcome that disadvantage, but I haven't made a meaningful enough comparison yet to say it is true in my experience. I can only say at this point that the theory makes sense.

old roper · October 14, 2019, 07:10 PM

There is no secret that Berger has some problems

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...t-failure-test

**Unclenick** · October 14, 2019, 08:49 PM

Keep in mind that thread is 11 years old. 2008 was the year Bryan Litz started working with them. They didn't have the hybrid ogive then. David Hamilton was brought in in 2010 and has applied quality control methods they didn't have previously. So I would assume the line is a better and much-debugged line by now.

hounddawg · October 14, 2019, 10:19 PM

well I ordered 100 of the 105 hybrids earlier. Word on the street says around 30 gns of varget and a CCI 450 is pretty much a guarantee of sub .5 MOA performance in a 6BR. We shall see

Dufus · October 14, 2019, 10:49 PM

On the Long Range Hunting forum, if you don't shoot Bergers, you are not serious about shooting. Also, somehow they all achieve astounding velocities with them. One guy posted that he can get 2700 fps with a 215 gr Berger in a 308 Win.

Personally, I have developed into a Nosler fan. I used to shoot Speer exclusively for hunting, but they are hard to find in my neck of the woods, plus, I don't like what they have come up with in order to "keep up with the Jones".

stagpanther · October 15, 2019, 12:31 AM

Quote:

odd that you made this thread Stag. Earlier today I was contemplating buying a box of Bergers to try in the new build after reading this article

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2019/...6br-load-data/

seems like the the vanilla 6BR 105 Bergers and 108 ELDM's are the schnitzel. I might come off my wallet and buy a box tonight
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

My advice--get more than one box--maybe three or four--if you really want to find the "Eureka" load. : ) I think John hit the nail on the head about the bullet seating position and concentricity to the chamber/freebore--which means even after finding a good charge weight lots of experimentation with seating depth in my experience.

I'm traveling so don't have access to my load data--but I did have some great loads for my 6mm creed I found with the 105's. Also great results with hornady's 103 and 108 eld's.

std7mag · October 15, 2019, 03:46 AM

I love Bergers!
And chocolate shakes!

In all seriousness, i shoot them in all but 1 centerfire rifle i own.
115gr VLD Hunting in the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts.
140 & 168gr VLD Hunting in all my 7mm.
7mm-08AI
284 Win
Two 280 Rems
7mm Rem Mag.

Used the 140 in my 7mm-08AI in my first 600 yard match.
Also same rifle took large doe at 413 yards with same 140gr bullet & load.

berettaprofessor · October 15, 2019, 09:12 PM

I don't know if it's the weight or the manufacturer, but it's well-known and I can confirm, that a 90 grain Berger VLD in 224 Valkyrie shoots less well than a Hornady 88 grain...at least to the best of my ability (and others, by reports).

stagpanther · October 16, 2019, 01:34 AM

Quote:

I don't know if it's the weight or the manufacturer, but it's well-known and I can confirm, that a 90 grain Berger VLD in 224 Valkyrie shoots less well than a Hornady 88 grain...at least to the best of my ability (and others, by reports).

I was an early adaptor of the valk--built three of them in various length/twist combinations; the valk is a perfect example of having to get it "just right" in the chamber, twist, seated depth and velocity. The 90 is heavy (though I came up with a great load for the 95 gr matchking) and in my experience needs fast twist and fast velocity to stabilize well. Hornady's 88 eld was the first 224 bullet that really addressed optimizing the design of the larger bullets used for the valk. Adding to the problem was a lack of consistency in applying "true" SAAMI standards for the chamber reamers used by the various manufacturers upon the roll-out of valk barrels. Federal's roll-out was less than graceful and came close to killing the valk IMO. Also it's better to switch to the small primer cases IMO.

I bought literally thousands of the 90 gr vld's before hornady's eld's were developed, so I sent quite a few of them out the various tubes in the search for a good load. I did find a couple of good ones, but it wasn't easy--and they tended to lose their accuracy and consistency pretty quickly with minor charge weight variations to either side of the optional weight.

hounddawg · October 16, 2019, 10:03 AM

Quote:

My advice--get more than one box--maybe three or four--if you really want to find the "Eureka" load.

By the time I get through 50 - 100 rounds I will know whether the barrel likes them or not. I start with the Berger seating test @ 100 to see how they group and then fiddle with powder charge for SD's. If it looks promising I will get 500 or 1000

**Unclenick** · October 17, 2019, 08:17 AM

I did a quick lookup of the 88-grain Hornady and the 90 grain Berger. The JBM stability estimator says the latter needs a faster twist below 2700 fps to get securely into the good behavior zone. The two bullets are close to the same weight and have the same length, but the Hornady has a 0.142" plastic tip, so it has less mass at the nose. That reduces the overturning moment of inertia around the center of gravity, allowing it to recover from initial yaw in fewer coning cycles given the same velocity and spin as the Berger. In other words, it is more easily stabilized.

Berger thinks the Valkyrie 7" twist should be enough to stabilize it. The JBM calculator thinks that's marginal in a standard atmosphere, and you need to be sure muzzle velocity is getting to at least 2700 fps in that atmosphere.

That said, Berger has a new offering the stability calculator likes better in the 7" twist. It's their new 85.5 grain Hybrid ogive long range target bullet.

Bart B. · October 17, 2019, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I think because of their complex ogives, center of pressure etc they are a little more demanding of fine-tuning than most other designs--but that's just a theory.

What's "center of pressure?"

Ok, that's center of force as I learned. No big deal.

hounddawg · October 17, 2019, 05:40 PM

Quote:

What's "center of pressure?"

https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide...-bullet-shape/

Quote:

The center of pressure, that is, the point where the aerodynamics force, in this case the drag of the air flow (and a little bit of lift), act on the bullet.

old roper · October 17, 2019, 07:30 PM

More the same

https://www.accurateshooter.com/ball...-stability-bc/

reynolds357 · October 17, 2019, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

It's funny how rarely in the forums anyone mentions Berger bullets as their choice--any particular reason?

I like Berger. I shoot them in my 1k match rifle. Their hunting bullets are wicked at killing game. I quit using them because they destroy way too much meat. I now shoot what I eat with Barnes or GMX.

reynolds357 · October 17, 2019, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Keep in mind that thread is 11 years old. 2008 was the year Bryan Litz started working with them. They didn't have the hybrid ogive then. David Hamilton was brought in in 2010 and has applied quality control methods they didn't have previously. So I would assume the line is a better and much-debugged line by now.

They have been Scarry accurate ever since they arrived on the scene. I don't like the hybrids as well as the orig design.

Metal god · October 18, 2019, 11:14 AM

For me it's price and availability not unlike Varget . It's as simple as I don't want to like them because It would force me to buy them . Most Berger bullets I'd buy are $.50+ each locally and that's just to much for me . I'd likely treat those like factory ammo and never shoot them because of the cost . Same with Varget , I've never tried it because it's hard to get and cost more then most everything else I use . The funny thing about that is I just bought a pound of it ( $41 ) for the first time last week lol and still don't want to try it .

October 14, 2019, 09:37 AM	#1
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	VLD It's funny how rarely in the forums anyone mentions Berger bullets as their choice--any particular reason? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

October 14, 2019, 10:53 AM	#4
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	I think because of their complex ogives, center of pressure etc they are a little more demanding of fine-tuning than most other designs--but that's just a theory. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

October 14, 2019, 01:53 PM	#5
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	I am not sure if my gear and talent are enough to see a difference. If I were a benchrest shooter with a custom rifle and normally shot in the .1's an zeros at 100 and in the .3's at 600 and 800 I might be able to tell a difference with Bergers. Lately when I find a load I tend to stop development and work on technique. I am putting a new rifle together next week and may play with some Bergers and Hornady's for a change of pace __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 14, 2019, 02:39 PM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	I've put 300-400 of the 155 and 168 gr 308's downrange. I can get Lapua Scenar's for about the same price and I like them better. And for significantly less Hornady ELD-M's are just as good with my shooting skills. If the Bergers are better I'm not good enough to take advantage of it. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

October 14, 2019, 02:56 PM	#7
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Bergers are funny birds--I've used the same charge weights and they may disperse big time depending on jump to lands--and it isn't always the shorter jumps that yield the better results. I agree eld's are great all-around bullets for good results. I bought some of their solid-tipped eld's and had a hard time finding the sweet spot with them though--and they are very expensive. Also interested in Nosler's new "game changers." Don't hear much about Swift bullets either--but I've had some great results with their sciroccos/ __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

October 14, 2019, 10:42 AM	#3
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	My experience mimics haunddawg. I find less expensive Hornady and Sierra as accurate as Berger.

October 14, 2019, 03:25 PM	#8
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	odd that you made this thread Stag. Earlier today I was contemplating buying a box of Bergers to try in the new build after reading this article https://precisionrifleblog.com/2019/...6br-load-data/ seems like the the vanilla 6BR 105 Bergers and 108 ELDM's are the schnitzel. I might come off my wallet and buy a box tonight __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 14, 2019, 04:53 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Long ago someone put up measurements made with the Vern Juenke ultrasonic device that showed Bergers had better mass symmetry than most other makes. But the price puts folks off, the vast majority of whom are not shooting precisely enough for the advantage to be clear to them. And the secant ogive Berger VLD's need extra care to get good axial alignment in the bore (good cartridge concentricity, aka low runout). The newer Berger hybrid ogive design is supposed to overcome that disadvantage, but I haven't made a meaningful enough comparison yet to say it is true in my experience. I can only say at this point that the theory makes sense. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 14, 2019, 07:10 PM	#10
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	There is no secret that Berger has some problems http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...t-failure-test __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

October 14, 2019, 08:49 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Keep in mind that thread is 11 years old. 2008 was the year Bryan Litz started working with them. They didn't have the hybrid ogive then. David Hamilton was brought in in 2010 and has applied quality control methods they didn't have previously. So I would assume the line is a better and much-debugged line by now. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 14, 2019, 10:19 PM	#12
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	well I ordered 100 of the 105 hybrids earlier. Word on the street says around 30 gns of varget and a CCI 450 is pretty much a guarantee of sub .5 MOA performance in a 6BR. We shall see __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 14, 2019, 10:49 PM	#13
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	On the Long Range Hunting forum, if you don't shoot Bergers, you are not serious about shooting. Also, somehow they all achieve astounding velocities with them. One guy posted that he can get 2700 fps with a 215 gr Berger in a 308 Win. Personally, I have developed into a Nosler fan. I used to shoot Speer exclusively for hunting, but they are hard to find in my neck of the woods, plus, I don't like what they have come up with in order to "keep up with the Jones".

October 15, 2019, 03:46 AM	#15
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I love Bergers! And chocolate shakes! In all seriousness, i shoot them in all but 1 centerfire rifle i own. 115gr VLD Hunting in the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts. 140 & 168gr VLD Hunting in all my 7mm. 7mm-08AI 284 Win Two 280 Rems 7mm Rem Mag. Used the 140 in my 7mm-08AI in my first 600 yard match. Also same rifle took large doe at 413 yards with same 140gr bullet & load. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

October 15, 2019, 09:12 PM	#16
berettaprofessor Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2008 Posts: 1,091	I don't know if it's the weight or the manufacturer, but it's well-known and I can confirm, that a 90 grain Berger VLD in 224 Valkyrie shoots less well than a Hornady 88 grain...at least to the best of my ability (and others, by reports).

October 17, 2019, 08:17 AM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I did a quick lookup of the 88-grain Hornady and the 90 grain Berger. The JBM stability estimator says the latter needs a faster twist below 2700 fps to get securely into the good behavior zone. The two bullets are close to the same weight and have the same length, but the Hornady has a 0.142" plastic tip, so it has less mass at the nose. That reduces the overturning moment of inertia around the center of gravity, allowing it to recover from initial yaw in fewer coning cycles given the same velocity and spin as the Berger. In other words, it is more easily stabilized. Berger thinks the Valkyrie 7" twist should be enough to stabilize it. The JBM calculator thinks that's marginal in a standard atmosphere, and you need to be sure muzzle velocity is getting to at least 2700 fps in that atmosphere. That said, Berger has a new offering the stability calculator likes better in the 7" twist. It's their new 85.5 grain Hybrid ogive long range target bullet. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 17, 2019, 07:30 PM	#22
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	More the same https://www.accurateshooter.com/ball...-stability-bc/ __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

October 18, 2019, 11:14 AM	#25
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	For me it's price and availability not unlike Varget . It's as simple as I don't want to like them because It would force me to buy them . Most Berger bullets I'd buy are $.50+ each locally and that's just to much for me . I'd likely treat those like factory ammo and never shoot them because of the cost . Same with Varget , I've never tried it because it's hard to get and cost more then most everything else I use . The funny thing about that is I just bought a pound of it ( $41 ) for the first time last week lol and still don't want to try it . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .