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February 18, 2019, 11:47 AM | #51 | |
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Secondly.. any LEO worth a darn will tell you that threats are qualified by several distinguishable and articulable elements. The fact that someone has a gun in their hand can certainly be one of those elements. A gun in a persons hand is not usually the be all end all determining factor regarding who is a threat and who isn't but its certainly a place to start and it certainly should not be taken lightly. Ultimately I support the idea that a LEO is responsible for his or her actions but LEOs typically respond circumstances created by others they don't create the circumstance themselves. Where does it begin? It begins with the citizen. I have carried a gun for more that 35 years and I have never had a LEO ask me one thing about it. Any contact I have hand with LEO in my personal life have been traffic related and they always find me cooperative, reserved and hands where they can see them at all times.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; February 18, 2019 at 11:58 AM. |
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February 18, 2019, 07:29 PM | #52 | ||||
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With regard to the incident reported by the OP, we have no idea how the guy who was was behaving. He might very well have been acting in a way that would have led the reasonable person to believe that the guy with the gun in his hand was an imminent threat. Quote:
On the other hand, about 5 years ago in Sonoma County, California there was a [tragic] shooting of a boy by a deputy sheriff. The incident was investigated in depth by the Sonoma County District Attorney's Office which submitted this Report. As part of that investigation the DA retained Dr. William Lewinsky of the Force Science Institute, a leading and independent and objective expert in the field of human perception and critical incident decision making involved in lethal force encounters to render an opinion about various aspects of this shooting. In the Report some of Dr. Lewinsky's finding were summarize as follows (at page 48): Dr. Lewinsky's full report is included as Appendix D to the DA's Report. Not everyone with a gun in his hand is a lawfully armed private citizen just trying to help out. And the time available to assess, decide, and act, given normal perceptual and decisional delays is probably less than you appear to believe. These sorts of events do happen with alarming regularity. They happen when the guy shot has a toy gun, an unloaded gun, or something that looks like a gun but isn't. And they seem to happen largely because the guy who gets shot is acting in a way that can't reasonably be distinguished, in the time available for decision, from being a real, imminent threat. None of us wear visible halos. None of us have neon signs reading "certified good guy" on our foreheads. Quote:
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February 19, 2019, 09:52 PM | #53 | |
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some of the most comment problems: a good-guys failure to follow police issued commands, failure to follow repeated commands, undue delay in following commands or seemingly hostile articulation of a handheld weapon. Its a terrible thing when someone is harmed due to a misunderstanding but POLICE are not mind readers and when they must make a critical decision in a split second they often times do not have the luxury of having all the information and context that they would like. I think that the best thing we can do as armed citizens is not make it more difficult to understand.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; February 19, 2019 at 09:58 PM. |
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February 20, 2019, 12:43 AM | #54 | ||||
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Your last point is why I think it’s imperative for those who CCW to get training that includes actions post-self-defense shooting. I would in no way accuse a LEO from using deadly force when an armed or perceived-armed individual refuses to comply with directives. However, even cops are human and the incident with the man in Minnesota (Castile), who told the officer he was legally in possession of his CCW, proves that. If you listen to the tape, you hear the cop tell him to put his hands on the wheel and follow up telling him to get his wallet…a confusing statement that led to the fatal shooting of an innocent man. Who's to blame? I blame it on inadequate training. Or we could discuss the Chicago guard shot by police holding down another man (suspected shooter) following a shooting in the establishment. Everybody was screaming at the police who arrived that he was a security guard, he wasn’t an immediate threat to the police officer; the officer shot and killed him. I’m sure there are actions the guard could have taken, but was this a “good shoot”? Quote:
Dr. Lewinsky's full report is quite good and helps provide a defense for law enforcement using lethal force. But it only addresses the perceived, direct threat to oneself. What happens when an officer spots an armed gunman that isn’t directly threatening him; possibly hiding behind cover, with what looks like a woman a couple kids huddled behind him? It’s all conjecture on my part, but I still think it’s a paradigm shift in how LEO first-responders assess an active shooting scene, and it’s even more imperative for CCW owners and practitioners to practice and train their own actions, before, during, and after a self-defensive situation. Quote:
My son is 20 and has been legally carrying concealed for over a year (state of GA). I’ve had him take several classes with me and talked with numerous LEOs. There are several things he can and should do to minimize his perceived threat to law enforcement (whether he’s openly armed or not). I do personally think a large percentage of lethal force by LE could be eliminated if society simply complied with their instructions, but that’s a cultural issue for another discussion. My concern of course, is always the adrenalin and stress involved in a self-defensive situation (be it a fist fight or use of lethal force, heck, just getting pulled over can be nerve-wracking to some); I’m just a firm believer that realistic, scenario based training is the best way to mitigate accidents or negative perceptions. I can only focus on my part and my actions, as well as hope the LE community is doing theirs as well. There’s more than anecdotal evidence to support both sides. I just think there’s enough evidence to support a shift in training for both police and those who responsibly CCW. Quote:
Scenario training is extremely helpful. What do you do if you’re engaged in an active shooter situation or any defensive situation where you’re armed and behind cover, and you hear someone behind you yell, “drop your gun”. Most here would say, you immediately comply, but go act out the scenario and many will turn around, gun still in hand, to visually identify who gave the command; it’s a simple reflex, and as @Frank Ettin pointed out, you just forced the LEO to make a decision that may not end well for you. ROCK6 Last edited by ROCK6; February 20, 2019 at 12:54 AM. |
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February 20, 2019, 10:29 AM | #55 | |
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February 20, 2019, 11:28 AM | #56 | |
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All CCW holders need to be aware that LEO's WILL be on the scene no matter what.... It is there JOB to protect society and not your individual safety. That means first sign of the LEO's you empty your hands of a threat until they are satisfied. When I scan for follow on threats, my weapon is at position 3 not only clearing my field of view but it prevents me from pointing it any LEO's in close contact that might be responding. I will keep my hands visible and open until LEO's make contact. My personal standard is to re-holster or just put the gun down at my feet once my lane is clear and no follow on threats. I also begin asking for someone to call 911 to get police onscene. LEO's should also keep the possibility of armed citizenry making a lawful self defense shoot in their training footprint. |
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February 20, 2019, 09:20 PM | #57 | |||||
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The real point is that reaction times are a factor, along with potentially other things. The issue with reaction times is that many folks don't consider them appropriately when trying to assess justification for a particular use of force. Quote:
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February 21, 2019, 08:48 AM | #58 | ||
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ROCK6 |
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February 21, 2019, 11:49 AM | #59 | |||||
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Im not sure where you have been Quote:
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As an armed citizen I simply accept that if I run around with a gun in my hand, there are some inherent risks associated. There are also some meaningful ways I can mitigate those risks if so inclined. I also accept that I am the person with the greatest responsibility to keep myself safe. I wont try to point the finger at someone else in that regard. Quote:
Making urgent decisions in a split second which involve life-safety will probably always have a measure of haste involved. Haste is simply a factor, not a demerit. again, police are already doing that in a very meaningful way. and have been for 60 years. What are citizens doing?
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; February 21, 2019 at 12:02 PM. |
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February 22, 2019, 12:42 AM | #60 | |
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I do agree with your comment about what are citizens doing; however that's half the equation. You can simply ignore the increase of incidents of "friendly fire", but I would prefer to see more training on the LE side (which I can't necessarily confirm), as well as with those who CCW. Sure, common sense sounds simple enough, but I live and work in a very dynamic environment where you constantly have to train and remain vigilant of your surroundings. Common sense if often lost when you incorporate significant stress; training is the key and I'm simply saying that there's never a reason to ignore training to changes in an environment. If the number of citizens with CCW has increased exponentially in the last decade and you see no reason for BOTH LE as well as citizens to address the potential for an intersection during and after a shooting incident, I'm simply wasting my time trying to explain my stance. I'm not blaming officers, but I am questioning if they are addressing the new dynamics. I truly don't know; however I agree with Tom Gresham's initiative with prominent members in the LE training community to actually get together and discuss it...that leads me to believe there is something that could use some improvement. I do know I can only train on what my personal actions will be and practice and train for those scenarios as much as I can. I would like to hear from some actual LE members to see if this is being discussed, if it's not that big of an issue, or if any training scenarios are incorporating actions involving a potentially armed citizen in a self-defense shooting. Of course, I could just be blowing it out of proportion, but there are both statistics and cases where it sure seems like there is an increase. https://gunsinthenews.com/study-conc...ess-than-cops/ The above article addresses a few "mistakes" where a legal gun owners were killed by LE. My question is why and how can both LE and civilian's reduce these incidents. One area I think civilians need to receive some reinforced training is that they're not LE and they probably shouldn't inject themselves in a situation that doesn't immediately threaten them or their family. While many train, they should not become another "active shooter" unless they're are directly threatened. Personally, that makes the job of LE even more difficult when they arrive on the scene. That's a situation that may be difficult for many, but should be discussed and risks addressed. ROCK6 |
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February 22, 2019, 08:01 AM | #61 | |||
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This also relates to the thread about no training or permit CCW in KY.. Quote:
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February 22, 2019, 06:42 PM | #62 | |
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February 23, 2019, 02:20 PM | #63 |
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I know when I would intervene in an active shooting scene I would yell "just the facts, ma'am, just the facts" before I started shooting.
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February 24, 2019, 11:54 PM | #64 | ||
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My CCH course, years ago before I became a cop, spent the majority of time on laws regarding use of force, what to do if you ever were involved in a shooting, and appropriate actions around police when armed. Granted it was a one day class with a couple of hours on the range, so only so much knowledge could be imparted in a mere 5 or 6 hours.
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March 13, 2019, 09:24 PM | #65 | |
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If standing by watching innocent people lose their lives while you have the means to do something is within your range of living with yourself then it bares repeating. In 2002 we took down compounds in Afghanistan that had cells training to conduct mass shootings exactly like the one in Paris. That will not be the last of such type attacks nor will it be confined to Europe despite being a much softer target. Our society would be better off if both CCW's AND LEO's trained in this area learning to consider both being on scene of a mass shooting. Frankly I think our LEO's have become way too militarized and lethal force focused. IMHO, it was a mistake allowing them to access some of the surplus military equipment and has led to a loss of focus on their first mission. I could tell a huge difference in attitude in the LEO's we worked with pre-911 and post-911 after the POTUS allowed surplus military gear to be sold to Police Departments. It was kind of funny working with local LEO SWAT and having the US Army tip of the spear in CT operations with a decade of combat experienced emphasizing seeing hands and making a good shoot while the local cops are all taking about killing people in the house. Last edited by davidsog; March 13, 2019 at 09:31 PM. |
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March 14, 2019, 06:37 AM | #66 | |
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March 24, 2019, 11:32 AM | #67 | |
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For others, that short class on the basics of legal aspects for a CCW class was perfect. The only thing I would add to current CCW training standards are a few minutes of dealing with mass shootings. Establish a defensive position to protect your loved ones as well as those around you and expand/improve it. Develop the firefight. That is a skill and process that is not taught in most tacti-fool classes. Know the importance of emptying your hands and keeping them in plain view of the officer at all times. A mass shooting scenario is not going to end for a CCW carrier until LEO contact. Realize you are probably going to be cuffed and end up in the back of squad car. It is going to take a while to get things sorted out to their satisfaction. Deal with it. If they cave your skull in during that process...wonderful. You won the lottery and your grandkids will be very happy to inherit the huge lawsuit winnings. Be happy in your good fortune and thank the officer for making this opportunity in your life. I would definitely add training to every LEO department as well on dealing with CCW holders and mass shootings. Police officers not matter how much they want to be are not combat soldiers. IF you wanted that and are disappointed with Police work, go join the Military. Plenty of people to shoot in the face and their shooters/thinkers are overworked. Officer Safety is extremely important. However, just as a soldiers mission might be to storm the beaches of Normandy were the prospect of survival is not that great....you signed up to Protect and Serve. That means risk. If you cannot accept it, go work someplace else. Love and respect to the officers that understand this.... If I shot everybody I saw with a military firearm in Afghanistan, I would be in jail for murder. A similar response to mass shootings is required with appropriate discipline and clarity of thought. Understand there are armed CCW holders out there who will respond/react especially given the typical police stellar response times (not your fault Police Officers and my personal safety is not your responsibility)...to save their loved ones as well as others lives. |
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March 24, 2019, 11:57 AM | #68 | |
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Well said:
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March 24, 2019, 10:28 PM | #69 | |
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As an aside, from my LEO perspective armed citizens acting lawfully in defense of self and others is in the training footprint. At least in my area, but I’m also in a very 2A friendly state. Admittedly, I can’t speak with authority for every agency in every town, county, and state in America. It’s nothing to run across a law abiding (absent speeding or rolling a stop sign) citizen who is carrying where I’m from. Absent observations that you recognize from training and experience that lead you to believe citizen speeder is a little more nefarious, most cops around here think nothing about the fact that they’re carrying. This IS introduced in FOF training on occasion. Officers from my agency responded to an assault call a few years ago. Upon arrival, a citizen who had his ccw had a pistol drawn at the low ready, quickly holstered upon observing police, with an apparently scared female backed into a corner. After sorting it out, the “scared female” had just beaten the brakes off of another lady with a broken broom handle, knocking her uncounsious and swelling both her eyes shut. Good guy with a gun witnessed the assault, unholstered his firearm and presented it, stopping the assault. He acted appropriately upon police arrival (reholstered and put his hands up upon first sight of police) and so did the police (he was detained but released without his skull caved in after speaking with witnesses and getting his story, along with viewing video of the incident). Bad stuff happens. Misunderstandings occur. 99% of the time, they don’t if everyone involved uses even a small portion of common sense.
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March 25, 2019, 06:42 AM | #70 | |
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The guy fleeing the scene (might be the good guy) The guy who initially called police to the scene (might be the bad guy) The guy with the gun (might be a well intentioned citizen or a off duty LEO or other lawful carrier or perhaps the badguy) The guy who is not obeying your commands might be contemplating an attack on you or maybe its a deaf person or maybe its someone in shock or maybe they are suffering from some sort of medical condition which is impairing their judgment or maybe its so loud that they cannot hear you clearly, maybe they cant see clearly yadd yadda The guy stumbling down the sidewalk might be drunk, or injured, or suffering from a medical condition which impairs coordination or perhaps they have a head injury yadda yadda yadda. If the suggestion is that LEO's do not consider that a armed person might be a good guy is just silly on many levels. Any suggestion that LEO training does not already highlight such possibilities is equally as silly in my estimation. Still, I will admit that LEOs are human and some do sometimes make bad judgment calls during the 000.98 of a second that they are typically afforded to make such decisions.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; March 25, 2019 at 06:38 PM. |
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March 25, 2019, 09:22 AM | #71 | ||||
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https://www.wnd.com/2012/06/cops-gun...jwmPoKiBp7J.99 Quote:
https://www.usacarry.com/minnesota-c...r-shot-police/ Quote:
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March 25, 2019, 09:25 AM | #72 | |
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March 25, 2019, 06:34 PM | #73 |
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If that is not the sentiment that you perceive after reading a number of posts, that's you.. perhaps you are correct. I commented in a manner reflective of how I felt about what I read.
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Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; March 25, 2019 at 06:40 PM. |
March 26, 2019, 04:09 PM | #74 |
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Me too.
What is being suggested is as CCW holders become more prolific and more importantly, mass shootings become more prevalent...... LEO training needs to emphasize even more the fact there will be more and more encounters with legally armed, law abiding citizens. I hope that is cleared up for you. |
March 26, 2019, 06:22 PM | #75 |
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What you don't want is several hundred thousand LEO who are reluctant to do what they deem necessary due to OVER emphasis of a subject that any reasonable person already accepts as important. Training has always been a balancing act and right now I think that if anyone is suffering from a training deficit, its not the active LEOs. Displaying a gun in public is dangerous business but certainly there are methods and tactics which can be used by the citizen carrier which may mitigate the potential of being mistaken for a badguy.
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